The Dark Knight Rises -- Movie discussion thread [spoilers]

[Statham]

I liked Ivy too.

She needed a far better script and needed to stay in the costume she wore during that charity auction sequence. Thurman's not that bad an actress, but she was wasted in that film.

[DebkoX]

Hmm, a new ivy would be great, the sexual part would be strong.

[Statham]

Hmm, a new ivy would be great, the sexual part would be strong.

That and a Batman who doesn't act like a monk when it comes to her; Clooney's "Oh no you don't!" moment in Batman and Robin is absolutely hilarious.

[DebkoX]

That and a Batman who doesn't act like a monk when it comes to her; Clooney's "Oh no you don't!" moment in Batman and Robin is absolutely hilarious.

;p A temptress kinda figure.

[Jim Thompson]

Here's a truly spectacular review of The Dark Knight Rises that goes into more depth about the symbolism of the film and the trilogy than any article I've read.

It even makes a fantastic case for why Talia was a necessary and important part of the film.

http://them0vieblog.com/2012/07/23/n...night-rises-2/

Really great stuff.

What a phenomenal review! Thanks very much for sharing it!

[NewMutant]

I liked Ivy too.

She was the best part in the terrible movie.

[Choppa]

Then you need to be clearer in the words you're using - the implication of what you said is that Bruce, himself, is the one who cleaned up the city. He wasn't. It was legislation and people enforcing that legislation who did it; he spent most of those 8 years as a recluse.

But that is what I was saying. There would be no legislation without Bruce because obviously the Act wouldn't have been passed if everyone knew Harvey was a murderer.

That's a lot of 'perhaps'.



Back when Begins came out, there was a lot of complaint on a number of boards that Bruce was 'dumbed down' and 'too reliant' on Lucius. He was basically Bond, with Lucius being his Q. Bond is intelligent and intuitive but he can't do the things Q does - he can, though, give him ideas for new gadgets or improvements, and that's what Bruce did in the preceding movies.

That's my point. There are a lot of different variables at play in the context of what we're discussing. It's not as cut and dry as as saying that if we didn't see Bruce do X then it's impossible for him to have a certain skill. Hence my comment about it being silly nit-picking.

[Ginkasa]

It surpassed TDK right? Is it coming close to the Avengers or is it over and it wont reach it?

There's a few qualifiers for Bob Fett's post.

1) He's talking about 2012 films only.
2) He's talking about worldwide gross. With the current US and foreign gross combined, TDKR is the second highest film of 2012.
3) Speaking domestically only, The Hunger Games is still ahead of TDKR by about 43 million (And then The Avengers, of course, by about 250 million). TDKR will surpass THG, but probably not as much as many people would have expected.

Also, TDKR has not passed TDK in either domestic or worldwide gross. What's interesting, though, is that it is tracking ahead of TDK in foreign gross. That is to say, it has grossed more than TDK did at the same point in release which indicates that TDKR will surpass TDK in foreign markets when all is said and done. Its by about 30-40% too, which is pretty good.

[Kensei]

The character's international infamy amongst law enforcement agencies as "The Masked Man," the legends about his origins in the prison, the rumors about his history with the Al Ghul's-- all of it makes Bane rather mythical and larger-than-life, which I think makes him the perfect villain for the final entry of a trilogy all about one Man's ascension into becoming an immortal Legend himself.

I even think this aspect of the character lends a level of significance to Bane's demise that I think is getting overlooked simply for being "anti-climactic"-- he goes out like a chump without being able to finish his final words. Bane the Man could never live up to Bane the Legend because he was a symbol that could not endure, and his death reflected that. He didn't get a powerful death scene because Bane-- as a symbol-- doesn't deserve to be remembered that way.

Hmmm, internationally known terrorist who ends up dying an anticlimactic death in which he is blown away in one second. Remind you of anyone?

[cactusmaac]

If Bruce hadn't arrived with his army of cops, I'm certain they would have left the city before detonating the bomb.

I don't think they wanted to die with the bomb, but I certainly believe they were willing to if necessary.

FWIW, per the novelisation, they didn't have an escape plan. They intended to die with Gotham. I wonder if that was Ra's plan too, to ram the train into Wayne Tower station and blow it up with him still on it.

There's a few qualifiers for Bob Fett's post.

1) He's talking about 2012 films only.
2) He's talking about worldwide gross. With the current US and foreign gross combined, TDKR is the second highest film of 2012.
3) Speaking domestically only, The Hunger Games is still ahead of TDKR by about 43 million (And then The Avengers, of course, by about 250 million). TDKR will surpass THG, but probably not as much as many people would have expected.

Also, TDKR has not passed TDK in either domestic or worldwide gross. What's interesting, though, is that it is tracking ahead of TDK in foreign gross. That is to say, it has grossed more than TDK did at the same point in release which indicates that TDKR will surpass TDK in foreign markets when all is said and done. Its by about 30-40% too, which is pretty good.

It's quite likely to beat the TDK gross since that wasn't released in China which is a pretty big market. Avengers made over $80m there.

[Rugal 3:16]

Regardless of whether you loved this movie or not (I loved it) does anyone know the general conscensus (sorry if mispelled) for this movie?

Will it be remembered in the same league as Superman 3, Batman Forever, Spidey 3 and X3 because at least from people i asked and from my opinion TDK is still above this so it's a downward slope, but will it be a downward slope so much that it would be remembered alongside the curse of threes or at least in the same breath as Batman Begins?

I mean AFAIR Superman returns had an initial positive vibe, but time eroded it into the garbage we generally now conceive it to be.. and Green Lantern on the other hand was annointed as garbage from the get-go.

It's kinda funny that Amazing spidey is now one of the best films (which i agree with) even though it even lampshades on plotlines it didn't resolve but people make 99 lists of why this film sucks based on answerable presentations made on film.

[Tar22]

Hmmm, internationally known terrorist who ends up dying an anticlimactic death in which he is blown away in one second. Remind you of anyone?

That's an incredibly broad description, so I don't know what you're referring to.

[cactusmaac]

Here's a truly spectacular review of The Dark Knight Rises that goes into more depth about the symbolism of the film and the trilogy than any article I've read.

It even makes a fantastic case for why Talia was a necessary and important part of the film.

http://them0vieblog.com/2012/07/23/n...night-rises-2/

Really great stuff.

Some great thoughts on Bane in the movie.

And that, of course, is where Bane comes into it. I think that Nolan has crafted pretty much the perfect version of Bane, an iteration of the character who is perhaps the best that the villain could ever be. Bane isn’t just a goon in a silly mask, as he was in Batman & Robin or even in Batman: The Animated Series. Instead, he’s developed as a character who exists in dynamic opposition to Bruce. Nolan takes the best aspects of the character and improves upon them.


He’s defined as the very opposite of Batman, right down to him mask. Batman’s mask covers all of his face except his mouth. Bane’s mask pretty much only covers his mouth. Bane even operates using technology appropriated from Batman. The sewers are pretty much Bane’s Batcave, and the character’s modus operandi is constructed to compliment Batman. He’s a planner, much like Bruce.

It’s telling that Bane is introduced in a powerhouse action sequence that actually mirrors the closing sequence from Batman Begins. In both situations, the character finds themselves hopelessly outclassed aboard a method of transportation hurdling towards defeat. In both cases, the character’s opponent appearsto have the upper hand. The revelation (or the twist) reveals that the character is actually planning to destroy the method of transport, rather than merely hijacking it.

Bridging the gap between the tone of Begins and the themes of The Dark Knight…

Consider this exchange between Ra’s Al Ghul and Bruce in Batman Begins:

Don’t be afraid, Bruce. You’re just an ordinary man in a cape. That’s why you can’t fight injustice, and that’s why you can’t stop this train.
Who said anything about stopping it?

Compare it to this one between a smarmy CIA handler and Bane:
Congratulations, you got yourself caught. Now what’s the next step of your masterplan?
Crashing this plane.

However, Nolan takes it much further than that. We’re told that Bane grew up in a prison, like his comic book counterpart. However, the best part of this is the design. Bane’s prison is designed to evoke the well from Batman Begins – the hole through which Bruce found the bats that would inspire him. Discussing the origins of Bane, Alfred comments, “Sometimes a man rises from the darkness. Sometimes the pit sends something back.” In many ways, the cave underneath Wayne Manor served a similar purpose, sending back the idea for Batman, implanted deep in Wayne’s subconscious.

Bane even seems to adopt a technique and methodology similar to Batman. After pulling off a daring aerial escape, he assures his captive. “Now is not the time for fear. That come later.” Bane’s reputation and his ability to generate fear are an important part of what makes him so significant a threat. Much like China’s extradition laws could not protect Lau from Batman in The Dark Knight, Selina knows that the G.C.P.D. cannot protect her from Bane. (“You should be as afraid of him as I am,” she advises Blake.)

Bane even makes the same sort of gradniose theatrical gestures that Batman used – albeit for the opposite purpose. In Batman Begins, Bruce created a bat-signal by tying a mobster to a searchlight for the world to see. It was a clear threat to the criminals and the corrupt, a declaration of intent. Bane deals with a covert intrusion into Gotham using the same sort of theatricality. “Hang them. Where the world will see.” It’s a very clear statement directed towards the forces of law and order.

Much like Bruce, Bane has ascended to the status of legend. Bruce is told the story of how one prisoner managed to escape the hellish pit of a prison, but the storyteller dismisses it as “an old myth, nothing more.” Bane perfectly mirrors the Batman half of Bruce Wayne, with his mask literally serving to numb the massive pain that he feels. We’re told that Bane is in “constant agony” underneath it. His pain might be more literal than Bruce’s existential rage, but for both characters “the mask holds the pain at bay.” It’s somewhat fitting, then, that Batman defeats Bane by attempting to destroy the mask. (Ironically, before Bruce destroys his own mask.)

In fact, it’s fascinating that Batman effectively defeats Bane and Talia by mirroring their attacks on him. Bane breaks Batman’s back; Talia ends up with a snapped neck. Bane destroys Bruce’s mask by pounding it until it cracks, while Bruce destroys Bane’s mask. Those actions can’t destroy Bruce because his two identities are so strongly intertwined. When Bruce is broken, Batman can rise. When his cowl breaks, Bruce is underneath it. Despite how closely Bane and Talia are integrated, they haven’t a union as effective as Bruce and Batman. There’s nothing underneath Bane’s mask to help him survive its destruction. Talia has nothing to help her survive her broken back.

It’s possible to argue that Bane is counterpart to Batman, but without the Bruce Wayne persona. At the start of the film, the Mayor of Gotham refers to Batman as “a murderous thug in a mask”, and that’s pretty much what Bane is. Bane doesn’t have a life outside the mask, and is incapable of taking it off without being in severe pain. The person behind the mask is never named, and is of little importance. Even Bane himself concedes, “Nobody cared who I was until I put on the mask.”

Given how so much of The Dark Knight Rises explores what Bruce Wayne is without Batman, it’s a very effective mirror for the character and I think that Bane is the perfect counterpoint to Batman in this film. Bane is pretty much Batman thrown back against Batman, but without any of the humanity and compassion. Bruce sincerely hopes that he can use Batman might make the world a better place, but Bane lacks that sense of hope. Bane is just nihilistic anger without any optimism behind him.

While the Joker firmly rejected Batman’s optimistic world view, Bane actually acknowledges it, to a point. The Joker could never understand Bruce’s faith in humanity, while Bane understands it perfectly. He just doesn’t think it can ever be realised – hope is a weakness. To Bane, hope is just that bright light you can never actually reach, teasing and tempting you. To Bane, hope is only useful as a tool to understand despair. Without hope, despair cannot truly exist.

I really liked Tom Hardy as Bane. While the character doesn’t get to steal the show in the same way the Joker did, Hardy has a great deal of fun. He seems to be consciously and anxiously flexing his muscles, as if waiting for something to happen – for the mayhem to start. “Let the games begin!” he warns Gotham, gleefully. There are wonderfully weird moments of humanity glimpsed beneath the character’s cold demeanour. As he listens to the national anthem before a terrorist attack, he sincerely notes, “That’s a lovely, lovely voice.” When he takes control of the Gotham Stock Exchange, he even gives a curt nod to one of the hostages.

Bane fits in quite well, much better than I honestly thought the character would. While the Joker proved a philosophical and intellectual challenge to Batman, Bane is instead a character how can’t be defeated by Batman’s physicality. In their first confrontation, Batman hammers Bane with everything he has, and Bane barely flinches. Even Batman’s usual tricks are completely useless. “Theatricality and deception,” Bane notes. “Powerful agents to the uninitiated.” Basically, Bane is a character who exists to counter Batman’s strength and tactics. He’s a more hardcore version of the hero. “You merely adopted the dark. I was born to it.”

[Vidocq]

Regardless of whether you loved this movie or not (I loved it) does anyone know the general conscensus (sorry if mispelled) for this movie?

Will it be remembered in the same league as Superman 3, Batman Forever, Spidey 3 and X3 because at least from people i asked and from my opinion TDK is still above this so it's a downward slope, but will it be a downward slope so much that it would be remembered alongside the curse of threes or at least in the same breath as Batman Begins?

Mixted to positive.

I mean AFAIR Superman returns had an initial positive vibe, but time eroded it into the garbage we generally now conceive it to be.. and Green Lantern on the other hand was annointed as garbage from the get-go.
.

Superman is still well liked, not loved but liked, amongst most critics and movie buffs. It's some fans who get sand on their maginas.

[Kensei]

That's an incredibly broad description, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Thought someone might catch that. Not to mince words, I was referring to Osama Bin Laden. What Bane did to Gotham was easily just as bad if not worse than 9/11 with multiple buildings and bridges filled with cars all destroyed at once, and even before coming to Gotham he appears to have been a known terrorist whose face and name were known, at least to authorities if not to the public at large. And in the end, both Bane and Bin Laden had very quick and very non-glorious deaths. I think it's a dramatic coincidence though. I doubt Nolan planned it that way.