AvX #8 *Spoilers*

[Rheged]

That's no excuse for what Namor did however. The Avengers won't fight me man to man so I'll just flood this country, killing and endangering lives to make them fight me. That's just wrong. You can say that t he Avengers were running or hiding but Namor didn't have to do what he did.

I didn't say it was an excuse. I've said it was Namor's reason for attacking Wakanda. No, Namor didn't _have_ to do what he did. Just as the Avengers didn't _have_ to hide amongst civilians in Wakanda, while launching attacks on the P5 from Wakanda. Each side chose options that showed a lack of concern for civilians.

Saying Namor could have just fought the Avengers directly is untrue. Why say it, when I'm sure you can say plenty of other negative things about Namor that are true?

Another question would be, if Emma knew where the Avengers where, why didn't she alert the rest of the P5? Why only Namor? Also,why doesn't she use her telepathic abilities on the Avengers Because she knew exactly what buttons to push on Namor. She pretty much goaded him into this. It doesn't absolve him of anything but I still would like her to be held just as much accountable as him. I think her feelings about Genosha and her response to the Avengers is coming into play here. Maybe she wanted Wakanda and the Avengers destroyed like Genosha.

There's very little consistency about the abilities of the P5 and Emma's telepathy in this event. There's plenty of places where they should have worked, but PIS, said otherwise. As far as her manipluating or goading Namor ... that would depend entirely on her goal. At this point, I don't see any reason for her to do so, and I see her actions more as agreeing with Namor (not Scott) on how things should be handled -- they both think this is a war, and on that they intend to win. Given the events in this week's Avengers, where an Avenger again invaded Utopia, with the intent to assassinate one, if not all the P5, their view becomes more understandable.

I find it hilarious that X-Fans will argue both of these points at the same time:

Namor is the strongest, fastest, has super telekinesis and telepathic abilities of all time.

Namor couldn't catch the Avengers because they were running away.

Namor IS awesome, but I'm pretty sure I didn't argue the former, but I'm getting used to the hyperbole in this discussion.

Considering the fact that Wanda kept owning Namor everytime they fought, I think they were doing Namor a favor by trying to avoid a full on battle whenever possible.

I wouldn't say Wanda owned Namor in Wakanda, since she ended up passing out just like him, and had Vision not been there, she would have been captured by the P4. Though, I do have to wonder, why she didn't just try leggoing Namor away, again, instead of engaging in a tug of war.

Finally read this. Namor going out in a blaze of glory was fitting. The Phoenix leaving him and the revelation that he is not so special a snowflake after all was decent sized peice of humble pie. It will be interesting to see where he goes from here.

LOL! I think you underestimate Namor's ego. He was a special snowflake before the PF, so he's still a special snowflake without it.

The destruction the D'Bari star was just supposed to be a throwaway scene too, but it ended up defining the entire mythos all the way up to the current set of stories. It would come off as extremely contrived if Namor was revealed to not actually have killed anyone. Nothing about the P5 makes any sense, how can Namor take on all the Avengers at once while Emma gets smacked around just by Red Hulk alone? Especially as Namor being the first one to go down implies that he's the weakest of them, or at least has the most tenuous connection to the PF.

How does it imply that? Namor only lost the Phoenix Force because he was the first to seriously engage Wanda. That implies he was either unlucky or the bravest / foolhardy, not that he was the weakest.

I think it would be a serious faux pas if they didn't give Wakanda its due if that were the case. But still taking a wait and see approach.

They did it with the Hulk in WWH when Pak revealed that everytime the Hulk went on a rampage Bruce Banner would be calculating in the background to make sure no one got killed. I think the powerset thing hasn't been explained so well.

We've seen the P5 use TK and in some cases TP. But in some tie-ins it seems that all that was amped was their basic power sets, Namors strength etc. So there seems to be some disconnect there. Also, it seems that Emma' telepathy is the thing everyone seems to be resisting. Though Brevoort said they'll be an explanation for the telepathy thing later on.

Also keep in mind Bendis said not to think of it as a typical power corrupts story because they'll be a lot of people flocking to the P5 side later on.

Also the teaser for Act 3 implies that the Phoenix is tired of being split and wants a single host. So did it allow Namor to lose? And is that what it's using Wanda for?

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/aven...ix-teaser.html

I don't think that's the case, as I stated above. But I could, of course, be wrong.

And while I don't think there are zero casualities in Wakanda, I'm also waiting to see what the next issue reveals. Marvel hasn't been eager to do real damage to Wakanda, or give Namor his own storyline, so I don't expect much.

A lot of the conflict feels forced for both sides, if everyone had stuck in character the X's and A's would have taken Hope off world and the phoenix would have followed them. Hope could have merged with the PF on an uninhabited planet if she wanted to. When did they find out about phoenix-fu?

Exactly. But we wouldn't have had an event if everyone acted in character, would we?

[db7]

Yeah, Cyclops was smart enough to know that Steve didn't mean to harm any of his students. After the X-Men abandoned some of them in their escape of Utopia, Scott flat out said they were safe with the Avengers.

And again, Steve throws Logan out of a plane to prove that point.

The plan was never to hurt Hope. Any X-readers saying otherwise simply didn't read the story carefully enough.

yup its just a matter of POV

steve want to make phoenix doesnt come to earth because he is believe its a power of destruction while scott believe its the power that will help the mutant race + his son cable warned him about apocalyptic future if avengers taken hope

and because this POV they war on each other , they believe with what they stand ..and they believe if they failed it will bring destruction

and till now it still have no answer ...who is right , hope the writers dont forget about this...

[XPac]

yup its just a matter of POV

steve want to make phoenix doesnt come to earth because he is believe its a power of destruction while scott believe its the power that will help the mutant race + his son cable warned him about apocalyptic future if avengers taken hope

and because this POV they war on each other , they believe with what they stand ..and they believe if they failed it will bring destruction

and till now it still have no answer ...who is right , hope the writers dont forget about this...

I think essentially Steve's plans to stop the Phoenix (and there was like 3 of them) all failed.

Scotts plan was the right one, but it didn't work at the time because Hope didn't have the right training for it.

So now Steve is essentially executing Scotts original plan PLUS the proper training, while Scott's side seems to be trying to stop him.

I think we have a pretty clear idea who is going to "win" in the end... but at least at first you can pretty much say both were wrong.

[Hariel0079]

I think essentially Steve's plans to stop the Phoenix (and there was like 3 of them) all failed.

Scotts plan was the right one, but it didn't work at the time because Hope didn't have the right training for it.

So now Steve is essentially executing Scotts original plan PLUS the proper training, while Scott's side seems to be trying to stop him.

I think we have a pretty clear idea who is going to "win" in the end... but at least at first you can pretty much say both were wrong.

You gotta admit though that K'un Lun connection is weak, cause if this was always known that training should've been applied on Jean and Racheal

[infernohara]

You gotta admit though that K'un Lun connection is weak, cause if this was always known that training should've been applied on Jean and Racheal

Still to early to tell. This is obviously some made up stuff so I'm sure they can retcon that K'lun actually gives the user complete control over the phoenix, which would actually be a first.

[db7]

I think essentially Steve's plans to stop the Phoenix (and there was like 3 of them) all failed.

Scotts plan was the right one, but it didn't work at the time because Hope didn't have the right training for it.

So now Steve is essentially executing Scotts original plan PLUS the proper training, while Scott's side seems to be trying to stop him.

I think we have a pretty clear idea who is going to "win" in the end... but at least at first you can pretty much say both were wrong.

win doent mean right...look civil war iron man win this event but the most sympathy goes to steve side , but even in the civil war iron man look like villain in this event they still give explanation his action are meant for a good cause

i think in the end Marvel want all to be happy ...if they make the avengers win and give an ugly child treatment to the x-men it will be a bad move

the avengers are still their top priority , but completely destroy the x-men i dont think so

[Hariel0079]

Still to early to tell. This is obviously some made up stuff so I'm sure they can retcon that K'lun actually gives the user complete control over the phoenix, which would actually be a first.

I can see that

[XPac]

win doent mean right...look civil war iron man win this event but the most sympathy goes to steve side , but even in the civil war iron man look like villain in this event they still give explanation his action are meant for a good cause

i think in the end Marvel want all to be happy ...if they make the avengers win and give an ugly child treatment to the x-men it will be a bad move

the avengers are still their top priority , but completely destroy the x-men i dont think so

I think that's part of the reason why you have some of the X-Men deciding they're fighting on the wrong side.

I think in the end we'll get both the Avengers and X-Men working together to stop the P5. Meaning essentially everyone wins (except the P5).

And that's why we end up getting the Uncanny Avengers post AvX, continuing that working relationship they established in AvX.

[White Phalkon]

Considering the fact that Wanda kept owning Namor everytime they fought, I think they were doing Namor a favor by trying to avoid a full on battle whenever possible.

Where did she own him? The 1st battle she tried to restrain Namor, he retaliated with an energy attack, she was screaming in pain and was on the defensive before resorting to Battlefield Removal. 2nd battle again she attacked him 1st, there was a struggle between the two and she passed out from the effort of fighting a resistant Namor. She did however manage to make Namor lose control of the Phoenix Force a fact she'll discover when she regains consciousness in the comic :\

[White Phalkon]

Galactus is typically put above Celestials, though. Not all at once, but he can definitely beat them individually. He's an Abstract, albeit a lower one then Death or Eternity. So, that would put Franklin's power at slightly below Galactus. Still very powerful, but nowhere near what it was displayed as before.

Galactus is a physical being, so hes not an abstract. He is however a cosmic entity of great universal importance.

[db7]

I think that's part of the reason why you have some of the X-Men deciding they're fighting on the wrong side.

I think in the end we'll get both the Avengers and X-Men working together to stop the P5. Meaning essentially everyone wins (except the P5).

And that's why we end up getting the Uncanny Avengers post AvX, continuing that working relationship they established in AvX.

if that happen it still be an irritating things to happen for majority of the x-men fans , it will only prove the avengers right , x-men wrong.

it will need more balance to make both side happy . the both team must have some of fault and some of heroic thing on this event

[Lascoden]

Galactus is a physical being, so hes not an abstract. He is however a cosmic entity of great universal importance.

Not exactly. He looks like it, but that's an optical illusion. It's a sort of "your mind can't comprehend" thing. Each species sees him a different way.

[Lascoden]

You gotta admit though that K'un Lun connection is weak, cause if this was always known that training should've been applied on Jean and Racheal

I'm wondering why they waited till after the Phoenix arrived to get off their asses. We saw with Fongji that they sought her out. Why not do the same with Hope? She was on Earth for some time.

[infernohara]

I'm wondering why they waited till after the Phoenix arrived to get off their asses. We saw with Fongji that they sought her out. Why not do the same with Hope? She was on Earth for some time.

Because it came as a dream to the Thunderer. He sought her out for the dream and its the only reason he happened among her. I didn't think K'un L'un can predict when the phoenix comes to earth or maybe it activates said dream when the phoenix is actually on its way. Either way to find a redhead on earth with phoenix connections could be difficult since Hope wasn't Known about to average heroes.

[Lascoden]

Because it came as a dream to the Thunderer. He sought her out for the dream and its the only reason he happened among her. I didn't think K'un L'un can predict when the phoenix comes to earth or maybe it activates said dream when the phoenix is actually on its way. Either way to find a redhead on earth with phoenix connections could be difficult since Hope wasn't Known about to average heroes.

But they also knew that it would return. So, wouldn't they keep an eye out? And Hope had a pretty public role as a member of the X-Men, especially with the E-Team. Plus, both the Avengers and the FF knew exactly who she was (even explaining her history to Reed).