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  1. #76
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Oh and and on a side note, I just noticed a mistake in the Perez panels.

    Perez's Amazon's couldn't have had a Coliseum. The Coliseum (Colosseum) is a Roman structure that was created way after the Greek Golden Age. They would never have seen it to copy it. Even if they had, Coliseum refers to size. There is no reason for the Amazons, who only numbered a few thousand, to have a structure that would house more than the (stable) population of the island. Lastly, Colosseum is the latinization of the greek Kollosos. So the Amazons would have had a Kolloseum or more correctly a Stadium or Hippodrome.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak213 View Post
    to be fair, the greek gods are a bunch of douchebags so there is no guarantee that artemis will grant their prayers because she could want to be a jerk.
    She probably hears prayers directed at her, but it's her choice if she chooses to act on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Oh and and on a side note, I just noticed a mistake in the Perez panels.

    Perez's Amazon's couldn't have had a Coliseum. The Coliseum (Colosseum) is a Roman structure that was created way after the Greek Golden Age. They would never have seen it to copy it. Even if they had, Coliseum refers to size. There is no reason for the Amazons, who only numbered a few thousand, to have a structure that would house more than the (stable) population of the island. Lastly, Colosseum is the latinization of the greek Kollosos. So the Amazons would have had a Kolloseum or more correctly a Stadium or Hippodrome.
    Why am I getting the image of a huge building shaped like a hippopotamus when you say hippodome? (even worse, why do i think of hungry, Hungry Hippoes?)

    But as for the naming, I suppose its just the usual mess between Greek and Roman mythology that's always been present in the book. Like Diana is the Roman name for the Greek Artemis (both goddess' of the hunt and the reason why WML called the Amazon that), people constantly call him Hercules when it should be Heracles. And back in Marston's days he kept calling Ares for Mars.
    A less bothersome but more recent case is Barbara Mineva, because Mineva is the Roman name for Athena.

    Maybe this is why Azzarello is renaming all the gods now?

  3. #78
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    But as for the naming, I suppose its just the usual mess between Greek and Roman mythology that's always been present in the book. Like Diana is the Roman name for the Greek Artemis (both goddess' of the hunt and the reason why WML called the Amazon that), people constantly call him Hercules when it should be Heracles.
    Sure but Perez had also gone out of his way to Greek-ify things. In Perez, it is Heracles and Diana is named after Diana Trevor, Steve Trevor's mother.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Sure but Perez had also gone out of his way to Greek-ify things. In Perez, it is Heracles and Diana is named after Diana Trevor, Steve Trevor's mother.
    Well, now we will have to see if Ms. Trevor still crashed on the island or not. And later writers resumed called him Hercules...think Byrne was the first?

  5. #80
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    I think its a bit on the interesting side that the Amazons would come into conflict with Heracles. And Hera tortured him all through his life. Even to his death in some myths. Doesn't she grant Hippolyte's wish and is behind the blessing of Diana?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Only skimmed it I'm afraid so hopefully this response will answer questions on my position. Honestly, I find it a bit rude to take apart paragraphs since I hope that each sentence is related to the other and its just an attempt to argue with my opinion instead of attempting to understand the viewpoint.
    Quoting is a NORMAL part of posting on a forum. It is inefficient, unnecessary, and hard to read through if someone just lazily hits the quote button and DOESN'T bother to highlight the points that he's responding to.

    First, the creation of the Amazons. Like I said, murdered by men. No male souls are kept even though men kill men. No souls from women killed by other women. This set up the idea that men are evil and our 'heroes' are victims of men.
    So giving recognition to one group of victims is somehow an attack on everyone else. Know how many charities out there only dedicate themselves to a certain set of people? People help as much as they can or want to. Gaea (who doesn't even appear as a character in the story, but as a figure from prehistory) apparently pitied female domestic violence victims and didn't bother with the vast majority of men OR women who were killed. Big deal. I fail to see how that's an attack on manhood.

    Second, the arrival of the Trevors. Diana Trevor brings the connection to Steve and the gun. But here, its Diana Trevor, a new character, that is herald as heroic. And she's in her prime. Then Steve enters the picture and his role changes from love interest to son of a hero. Diana previously fell in love with this character and prompted her entering the contest to stay with him. There was suggestion to me that all the Amazons entered the contest because of Steve. Might not have been there but I think there was interest because men weren't seen as evil then. That is changed. Now its the mission everyone enters for because no one wants a dried up old man. Steve is no longer in his prime. He's not dangerous like a young man is apprently. Again, its subtle but by deaging Steve, they've removed the rapport between the two sexes that used to exist.
    Steve's mom has nothing to do with him since she appeared later, when Steve wasn't even a part of the main story anymore. In the Gods and Mortals arc, Steve's role was not "son of a hero." It was hero, period. He was not a "dried up old man," but a man in his forties who could still kick ass. I did not like the aging either, but you are going way too far in your accusations against him.

    Third, is going to Man's World. Just mentioned Steve was the catalyst for Diana then. Now, he's not a factor. She's coming from Paradise to fix our world. There's a problem in Man's World that doesn't exist on Paradise Island. People might have been confused about what I meant when I asked about what was missing on Paradise Island that isn't in Man's World. Its men. Again, a little subtle. But when you take into account the creation of the Amazons, how two different outsiders are treated on Paradise Island, there starts to feel like a trend is forming. But lets just look at Diana. She first entered Man's World due to the love a man. She's got an interest in this fight now. She's also allowed to stay because the Amazons think they can contribute in some way to the outside world. Now, there's no love about leaving Paradise. Its a job and men aren't a factor. She's ice. She displays marvel at the outside world but she's always meant to stay the outsider. She's not even going to have anyone to want her to stay. Its not till I recently read Love and Murder that I can remember Diana actually flirt heavily with a man. Post-Crisis, she the super powered virgin that's not giving it up for any man till many years later where we see her start to play with those feelings. But pre-Crisis, she began with those feelings for a man.
    They turned Steve into a fatherly mentor figure instead of a love interest for Diana. They did NOT turn Diana into "ice," and in fact she was rather sensitive and emotional in those early Pre-Crisis issues. Diana was young and inexperienced; everything was new to her and she didn't know exactly what to do. Also, she has feelings for Superman very early on.

    Lastly, I think the writers following Perez that seemed to have it out for the Amazons didn't actually have hatred for them. They saw the subtle changes made just as I did. The pretense is stripped away. A society that seems to have a subtle hatred of men is brought to the forefront and knocked down because hatred under any disguise shouldn't be celebrated. Like I said, I like the current version of the Amazons. The subtle pretense of the Amazons starts stripped away.
    This is regression. The Amazons' isolation and dislike for men was confronted a dozen issues into the Post-Crisis issue, two and a half decades ago. Apparently, it's not enough for you to see someone acknowledge their problem and work to move beyond it. No, their problem has to define them and be played up, to the exclusion of their positive aspects.

    Now if I had my druthers, I think its apparent I favor pre-Crisis Amazons. But that day has past.
    What kind of idea do you have of the Pre-Crisis Amazons? The self-reflection was in Post-Crisis comics. Pre-Crisis Amazons were barred from even letting men step foot on their island. They were portrayed as benevolent, perfectly superior people compared to Man's World.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Nope. Bruce being traumatized by falling into the bat cave explains one little thing: why he dresses up like a bat to scare people. Because bats, due to that very incident, are a symbol of fear to him. It's not primordial, but it adds something, it adds meaning to one of his most well known aspect: the batsuit.
    That's what I said already.

    It's a layer. It explains a side detail. It's just another trauma before the main trauma. The Batman story can, and has, been told many times without it. I can think of multiple ways to explain the bat costume and use of fear without dropping young Bruce into a scary cave.

    What having all her ancestors being sexual victims to men twice adds to the undertanding of Wonder Woman......well, I hope for her it doesn't. But if you have an explanation to what it adds to her origin, feel free to share.
    As for the rest....honestly I won't even comment because I didn't talk about that and it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
    Again, it's a layer. It doesn't explain her origin, rather it highlights and brings attention to some of her basic feminist themes.
    Last edited by JimRaynor55; 07-21-2012 at 07:49 PM.

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    This was a good story.

  9. #84
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    Thank you, coveredinbees.

    If Post-Crisis Wonder Woman was about man-hating, it did a terrible job of that.

  10. #85
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimRaynor55 View Post
    Quoting is a NORMAL part of posting on a forum. It is inefficient, unnecessary, and hard to read through if someone just lazily hits the quote button and DOESN'T bother to highlight the points that he's responding to.
    I don't know. Are you asking me a real question? Thanks for keeping my paragraphs together though.

    What kind of idea do you have of the Pre-Crisis Amazons? The self-reflection was in Post-Crisis comics. Pre-Crisis Amazons were barred from even letting men step foot on their island. They were portrayed as benevolent, perfectly superior people compared to Man's World.
    My idea of the pre-Crisis Amazons is they were superior to the outside world. Purple rays, invisible jets, that sort of thing. Men not being allowed on the island was by decree of one of their goddesses. In Paradise you could be an improved you with their training. If you were a woman since the whole goddess decree. Sexism was left to the gods. Essentially, if you were allowed on Paradise, you had access to the best rehibilitation clinic ever known. But occassionally it produced foes for Diana from within the ranks of the Amazons. Not every Amazon was perfect. On the whole, they kept to themselves. But if someone came to them for help, they helped. They looked at the goodness of people and not their sex. But they weren't just a reflection of an ancient world. They evolved. Warriors but I don't recall seeing an Amazon dressed in battle armor back then. They wore those little short dresses. Wore bracelets because of another decree by the gods. Went crazy without them. If Diana was bound by a man she lost her Amazonian abilities and I think that was true for all Amazons.

  11. #86
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    It´s both, actually.
    They´re forced to be isolated and they hated men for 3,000 years.

    It's not fair, she was raped. she shouldn't make generalizations, but still not fair.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I think its a bit on the interesting side that the Amazons would come into conflict with Heracles. And Hera tortured him all through his life. Even to his death in some myths. Doesn't she grant Hippolyte's wish and is behind the blessing of Diana?
    Oddly enough Hera, Goddess of Women has never really been involved with the Amazons or Diana, not in the comics at least.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    It's not fair, she was raped. she shouldn't make generalizations, but still not fair.
    Three thousand years ago.

    There are women in "man´s world" who manage to overcome the trauma, marry and have children in less time than that.

  14. #89
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsagiTsukino View Post
    To me the amazons should pray to the goddess of childbirth if they want children. Since the amazon have a courting ritual after the couple completes the rutial,they are marriage give eachother rings. Go to the temple of Artemis to have a children.
    I've heard of something like that... Its called consensual sex. Of course it might be to complex for the Amazons since it requires actually being able to form some sort of minimalistic relationship/bond between two people of the opposite gender... An that would require that the Amazons stopped being insular, isolationist bigots... But i doubt thats ever going to happen in a WW book. Oh well, might as well just keep up the sex pirate act. *rolls eyes*

  15. #90
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimRaynor55 View Post
    That's what I said already.

    It's a layer. It explains a side detail. It's just another trauma before the main trauma. The Batman story can, and has, been told many times without it. I can think of multiple ways to explain the bat costume and use of fear without dropping young Bruce into a scary cave.
    Again, it's a layer. It doesn't explain her origin, rather it highlights and brings attention to some of her basic feminist themes.
    Which basic feminist theme? Women are all victims since their birth?
    Because that doesn't sound like a very good feminist message to me. And, as far as I can tell, it explains nothing about Wonder Woman because it is something that never happened to her (it didn't, right?).
    Besides, what layer does it add to their mythos that being raped by Herakles and his men don't?
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

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