Did Peter Parker Need To Die In Order to Relaunch the Ultimate Universe?

[Robbie_Jee]

You get to decide what is important?

No, of course not. I'm just saying that repeating yourself over and over and over again is not going to help bring the conversation forward. It's stagnant, don't you agree?

I just re-read the Ultimate Marvel Forum Rules, and didn't see anything about needing to keep with proper debate protocol.

It's simple communication advice. Nothing more. If you'd like to suggest any alternatives, be my guest.

Oops, did you mean to commit the logical fallacy of appeal to motive?

You nothing about my motives.

You're just acting childish. I wasn't even responding to you anyway.

Yet, it is your competetive nature that compels you to say more than a simple, "I disagree with you."

Perhaps you should practice what you preach. ;)

Besides, I was helping the guy out. It had nothing to do with whether I agreed with him or not. I actually did agree with a little of what he's said but that's beside the point.

[atlasjj]

I still think you're missing the point. It's like saying "man I want to see more of Nolan's Batman" then telling someone to go watch the Burton films or the cartoon. They're not simply asking to see Bruce as Batman, but to see Nolan's interpretation of Bruce as Batman. Do you see the difference?

Look at the age old debate regarding pre-crisis Superman verses post crises. Same name, basically the same story and powers but completely different iterations of the same character. That's why pre-crisis fans were up in arms bc they could no longer read stories about that version of Superman. Everything new was post - crisis Superman. The characters were handled very differently. Same thing with Ultimate Peter vs 616 Peter. Completely different characters, back story, supporting casts, story arcs etc. Telling someone "oh go read 616" is just silly. You want more Hercules, go watch Kevin Sorbo....doesn't really do anything for a fan of the marvel version does it?

I follow what you're saying.

[Akelexre]

No, Pete didn't need to die; you could still have introduced Miles, just have him be, "Ultimate Scarlett Spider" or something, and Pete takes him under his wing and they become long term partners--therefore the status quo is shaken with the young loner learning to trust a younger hero from a very different background than him (relaunch it with, "Ultimate Spider-Men #1"), the Ultimate Universe gets more diverse with a good character (Miles), and we all get to keep a well-written, funny, and inspiring character who also has better secondary characters (MJ, Gwen, Aunt May, Kitty, etc.) than any other character in the UU.

[babybro]

No, Pete didn't need to die; you could still have introduced Miles, just have him be, "Ultimate Scarlett Spider" or something, and Pete takes him under his wing and they become long term partners--therefore the status quo is shaken with the young loner learning to trust a younger hero from a very different background than him (relaunch it with, "Ultimate Spider-Men #1"), the Ultimate Universe gets more diverse with a good character (Miles), and we all get to keep a well-written, funny, and inspiring character who also has better secondary characters (MJ, Gwen, Aunt May, Kitty, etc.) than any other character in the UU.

And "Ultimate Scarlet Spider" wouldn't even crack the top 100. Look at the latest sales of July. The original Scarlet Spider was in the 70's range. Ultimate Xmen in the 80's, people keep going to this point without realizing that it took Peter Parker dying just for Miles to reach the sales mantle he has currently. If that didn't happen, he wouldn't have lasted any more than 5 months tops.

[gzilla46]

I don't like how Spiderman purists, AKA "RACIST" flip out because they made Spiderman black.

[sage6paths]

And "Ultimate Scarlet Spider" wouldn't even crack the top 100. Look at the latest sales of July. The original Scarlet Spider was in the 70's range. Ultimate Xmen in the 80's, people keep going to this point without realizing that it took Peter Parker dying just for Miles to reach the sales mantle he has currently. If that didn't happen, he wouldn't have lasted any more than 5 months tops.

Oh my god. I didn't know people from an alternate reality posted here I mean that's the only way to know for sure if Miles would have lasted for more then 5 months.. So how is Peter doing alive and well I hope.

[Akelexre]

And "Ultimate Scarlet Spider" wouldn't even crack the top 100. Look at the latest sales of July. The original Scarlet Spider was in the 70's range. Ultimate Xmen in the 80's, people keep going to this point without realizing that it took Peter Parker dying just for Miles to reach the sales mantle he has currently. If that didn't happen, he wouldn't have lasted any more than 5 months tops.

I don't think the idea that an "Ultimate Scarlet Spider" or "Ultimate Spider-Men" or what have you, if a good writer and artist was attached to it, still would not have sold well (say, top 50) is axiomatic. But even if it is--so what? Killing Pete just to sell a few book is a terrible idea. And lazy. Try something else.

For example, they could have tried doing "USS" as a regular "mini-series kind of event" [say, 4 - 6 issues every year, each tying into a big event happening at the time]; or if you must use Pete to get a sales boost, fine, just tie his story tightly into Miles' (i.e. Pete is a tutor at Mile's school, develops a relationship with him over time, and that connection helps lead to the spider bite, thereby rackign Pete with guilt for bringing a friend into the masked business, hence when he takes Mile's under his wing it makes sense). There was so much potential there. Could you imagine a young Miles being tutored by Pete on one hand, and Nick Fury on the other, utlimately being torn between the loner, street crime fighting, "I don't kill" mantra of Parker against the international, team focused, will kill your ass in a second for the greater good beliefs of Nick Fury? What about the cultural differences of a middle-class, relatively suburban older white male attempting to instruct a younger, urban mixed-race male: is that a barrier for the two, or not? And the idea of Pete/Jessica/Miles "Team Spider" teaming up....tsk tsk. And if you REALLY needed a sales boost for USS, it'd be easy to have Pete be a regular guest star, especially if he's teaching miles. And vice versa (Miles appearing in Pete's book to promote USS). Ugh. Killing Pete was a terrible idea.

My ultimate point, to further clarify why I'm posting in this thread: there was SO MUCH else they could have done to shake up the status quo and add to the Spider-man mythos without killing Pete. They did not need to kill him. It pisses me off they chose to just off Parker instead.

[babybro]

Oh my god. I didn't know people from an alternate reality posted here I mean that's the only way to know for sure if Miles would have lasted for more then 5 months.. So how is Peter doing alive and well I hope.

Never stated my opinion was fact, but based on how quick Static and Mr.Terrific was cancelled, and seeing as Marvel is even faster at cancelling series than DC (hell, some series was cancelled before the first issue came out.) 5 months does sound about right.

[babybro]

I don't think the idea that an "Ultimate Scarlet Spider" or "Ultimate Spider-Men" or what have you, if a good writer and artist was attached to it, still would not have sold well (say, top 50) is axiomatic. But even if it is--so what? Killing Pete just to sell a few book is a terrible idea. And lazy. Try something else.

For example, they could have tried doing "USS" as a regular "mini-series kind of event" [say, 4 - 6 issues every year, each tying into a big event happening at the time]; or if you must use Pete to get a sales boost, fine, just tie his story tightly into Miles' (i.e. Pete is a tutor at Mile's school, develops a relationship with him over time, and that connection helps lead to the spider bite, thereby rackign Pete with guilt for bringing a friend into the masked business, hence when he takes Mile's under his wing it makes sense). There was so much potential there. Could you imagine a young Miles being tutored by Pete on one hand, and Nick Fury on the other, utlimately being torn between the loner, street crime fighting, "I don't kill" mantra of Parker against the international, team focused, will kill your ass in a second for the greater good beliefs of Nick Fury? What about the cultural differences of a middle-class, relatively suburban older white male attempting to instruct a younger, urban mixed-race male: is that a barrier for the two, or not? And the idea of Pete/Jessica/Miles "Team Spider" teaming up....tsk tsk. And if you REALLY needed a sales boost for USS, it'd be easy to have Pete be a regular guest star, especially if he's teaching miles. And vice versa (Miles appearing in Pete's book to promote USS). Ugh. Killing Pete was a terrible idea.

My ultimate point, to further clarify why I'm posting in this thread: there was SO MUCH else they could have done to shake up the status quo and add to the Spider-man mythos without killing Pete. They did not need to kill him. It pisses me off they chose to just off Parker instead.

They have tried everything else, it doesn't work. It's that simple really. When Marvel and DC try to create new heroes, especially minority heroes, it doesn't sell. Again, look at the july sales. Outside of Ultimate Spider Man, the next top selling minority book is Batwing at freakin 109, that's the second best. Blue Beetle, and other racial minorities are even
below that. The fans only stick with what they know, so marvel and dc can't try something else, not with this current demographic. There only chance would be to literally kick this current demographic to the curve and try and gain new readers and audience into the fold of comics who would be more willing to read minority and new heroes, but with the current demographic they have, it's close to impossible. With the only two successful series literally being Batwoman and Miles, both heroes who replaced a hero of a already established readership and thus were more likely to give it a chance.

Ultimately, the only way Miles was guaranteed success is the way they did now, guest appearances would have helped for an issue or two until the guest disappeared, just like what happened with batwing. When batwing was in a crossover regarding the batfamily, sales went up for that issue, than crashed back to it' regular numbers. The same applied when batwing had a guest appearance by the JLI team, which is a plus 50 book. His book increased his sales, (and by sales I'm specifically talking about shipment to stores, not actual
sales to customers), but the next issue, which is now, it's at the 107 mark. Batman is the biggest solo star in comics by numbers, who regularly appeared in batwing, and that didn't save his sells. Which sucks because quality wise it's an excellent series that's receive a lot of praise from reviewers, it's just that readers aren't willing to give him a chance like any new or minority character.

[BrotherCool]

Isn't this topic about if Pete had to die to relaunch the UU and not about if Pete had to die in order for Miles to succeed?


On topic: No. Pete didn't need to die to relaunch the UU.

Off topic: Yes. Pete needed to die for Miles to succeed.

[babybro]

Isn't this topic about if Pete had to die to relaunch the UU and not about if Pete had to die in order for Miles to succeed?


On topic: No. Pete didn't need to die to relaunch the UU.

Off topic: Yes. Pete needed to die for Miles to succeed.

It's not separated, if anything miles fruition into USM was the completion of the relaunch of the UU. It's just that discussing about miles focuses on a specific part of the
relaunch of the UU and not the UU as a whole.

[magnuskn]

Saying that Peter "had" to die to make Miles successful as the new Spiderman is lazy and unimaginative. They could have taken out Peter in a number of other ways to make place for Miles.

It may be more fair to say that they had to kill Peter to make place for a more unified Ultimate Universe, because USM always seemed to be more located in the regular, non-totally-cynical MU than the UU.
That being said, Bendis still is writing the book that way, with only tangential connections and acknowledgements of the other UU books. His versions of the non-regular characters, like Nick Fury, Tony Stark, Steve Rodgers, etc. always come off as more rounded human beings and less than the "poochie-fied" caricatures of their 616 counterparts which they are in the other titles.

[orthodoxyordeath]

I don't like how Spiderman purists, AKA "RACIST" flip out because they made Spiderman black.

Oh look, it's the "racist" gambit.

On topic, no Peter Parker didn't have to die, but YES someone BIG had to die to shake up the status quo. Couldn't have been just anyone, had to be a main man or woman, Iron Man, Cap etc come to mind as other possibilities

[babybro]

Saying that Peter "had" to die to make Miles successful as the new Spiderman is lazy and unimaginative. They could have taken out Peter in a number of other ways to make place for Miles.

It may be more fair to say that they had to kill Peter to make place for a more unified Ultimate Universe, because USM always seemed to be more located in the regular, non-totally-cynical MU than the UU.
That being said, Bendis still is writing the book that way, with only tangential connections and acknowledgements of the other UU books. His versions of the non-regular characters, like Nick Fury, Tony Stark, Steve Rodgers, etc. always come off as more rounded human beings and less than the "poochie-fied" caricatures of their 616 counterparts which they are in the other titles.

Is that the only thing people can say? That it's lazy and unimaginative. How about no, it's just true, as sales of other series clearly indicates. It's simple, Peter had to be taken out of the picture completely in order for fans to be willing to give it a chance. It's not lazy or unimaginative, it's just the only way that works, and you can blame the fans for that. If fans
were more willing to give new characters and minority characters a chance, Peter might still be around today.

[Drz]

Peter Parker didn't need to die to pass on the mantle, but him living a happy life or dedicating his life into science! Instead of being a vigilante/SHIELD agent, would sitll mean every single freaking some fans would be demanding Parker and whatnot.