YJ Panel - TIm Drake and Jason Todd

[godisawesome]

Actually, YOU are the one not getting this. Either on purpose or otherwise. Tim Drake was always part of the Batman team. Yes. He had a solo comic. Guess what, Dick Grayson had regular solo strips for years. Even in the 40s he had solo strips in non-Batman comics. There's even been a DC Archive that collects a lot of them. By your argument Dick Grayson was never part of the Batman team because he had his own solo comics. Just because they weren't married at the hip every month doesn't mean they weren't a team. Bruce raised Tim while his father wasn't able to and then adopted Tim as his son when Tim's dad died. Does that sound like he was some random person in Gotham that was never part of Batman's life?

So now Bruce's adopted son doesn't even know that Bruce was Batman, despite being in Wayne Manor in Batman #1 and being labeled a former Robin (not RED Robin) by Batman's own computer in that same issue.

Just LAST MONTH, Bruce was having a family portrait painted in Batman & Robin. Guess who was there, and not off being a solo hero apart from the Batman universe? Tim motherfracking Drake. Again: LAST MONTH. Is DC so dumb that they are rebooting stories AFTER the reboot or do they think we're so dumb that we'll lap it up anyway?

Uh, I haven't heard anything even remotely relating to Tim not knowing who Batman was. I think you're overreacting a little bit.

I'm a fan of Tim and I don't feel as if this change is slight to me unintended or otherwise and I really can't understand people who think that way.

It's mostly an annoyance to me. I just care about the stories because I honestly don't think Tim's career as a hero needs to be rebooted. And I'm just trying to analyze why people have a problem with the idea of the name change, and I'm not even certain that he actually will only be Red Robin-I just don't see that kind of decision as having any real staying power unless they radically change Tim's story. The problem is that people link the codename Robin to the Dynamic Duo, that Tim's place as the third Robin ranks him as a peer on equal footing with Grayson and Todd. It implies that he was the hammer to Batman's anvil and was the second most known vigilante operating in Gotham for a time. People may feel that making Tim's codename Red Robin an homage to the original sidekick rather than an inheritance makes him less official in some ways-an extreme example like this might be Nite-Wing in Chuck Dixon's old run on Grayson's title. It can imply that he was always an outsider, when he arguably was just as tied into the family as Dick, even when he was solo.

And remember, a great deal of us are paranoid and chomping at the bit for news of Tim returning to a solo. We're not all sane, is what I'm saying.

[MajorHoy]

Of course, there NOT being a robin at the time is integral to his origin story. Honestly I'll be surprised if I take anything positive from his zero issue. It really sounds like they're rebooting the character completely while not paying attention to any of what made him popular in the first place.

Well, don't forget how drastically Jason's backstory was changed after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

It sounds more and more like DC is only NOW thinking through these things that should have been solidified for everyone writing these stories before the first issues of the New 52 were released. And in attempting to close the barn doors after all the animals have escaped, their explanations to try and make things make sense are now causing more confusion and chaos. How "helpful" that is!

We can only help that in actually reading the stories during Zero month it will all make sense and fit together nicely.
(At least until they screw things up and change their minds soon after that.)

[Red_Kamui]

It might be all me, but I'm checking my early Nightwing and Batman issues. I do know Jason said he was Robin for almost 2 years in issue #2 or #3, and in my mind Dick has spent more time as Robin than any other version.

Please let me know if you find where Dick said he'd been Robin for two years. I'm working on a time-line and I'd like it to be as accurate as possible. I'm skimming back issues myself and can't find it.

But yeah, it seems pretty confirmed that Jason was Robin for 2 years. He says he trained with Batman for multiple "years" in Red Hood #2, and Jason clarfies this as "Two years" in Red Hood #4.

My time-line currently has Jason as Robin for two years, and all others as Robin for roughly one year. My theory is that Jason needed extra training time under the Robin mantle because he was a problem child. It makes sense to me, but let me know if you find that info so I can change it.

[Conway]

So now Bruce's adopted son doesn't even know that Bruce was Batman, despite being in Wayne Manor in Batman #1 and being labeled a former Robin (not RED Robin) by Batman's own computer in that same issue.

I doubt they are going that far with it. If Tim doesn't confront Batman about the role he doesn't get his own role.

I've only heard that Tim might not know Bruce is Batman on these threads. I do know at least one poster that was at the panel said "It felt like Lobdell was insinuating that Tim wasn't part of the Wayne Family." Several people tried to ask if Tim was still adopted by Bruce or if his family was alive, but the panel (Lobdell) wouldn't answer that. IMO it just seems like fan trolling at the convention. I don't see why they would do it.

[CagedLeo730]

To try to clear up some confusion, here is Dan Didio's Facebook post regarding Tim Drake

Someone asks if not using Stephanie and changing Tim Drake from Robin to Red Robin is a personal attack on Chuck Dixon

Didio: No agenda here gentlemen, just moving the line the and characters in a new direction and working with those that best serve the universe now. best, DD

Didio: oh, and a little clarity on Tim, following Jason Todd's supposed death, Tim became Batman's apprentice, but took the name Red Robin instead of Robin because he did not want to use the name of a fallen hero. Damian, didn't have the same problem.

[Fate's Faith]

To try to clear up some confusion, here is Dan Didio's Facebook post regarding Tim Drake

Someone asks if not using Stephanie and changing Tim Drake from Robin to Red Robin is a personal attack on Chuck Dixon

Didio: No agenda here gentlemen, just moving the line the and characters in a new direction and working with those that best serve the universe now. best, DD

Didio: oh, and a little clarity on Tim, following Jason Todd's supposed death, Tim became Batman's apprentice, but took the name Red Robin instead of Robin because he did not want to use the name of a fallen hero. Damian, didn't have the same problem.

I don't know who this troll Didio is but he's clearly misrepresenting the facts. Tim Drake has no idea who Batman is! I just read it this evening!

Yes, that's sarcasm.

Hey, supposed death?!

[godisawesome]

To try to clear up some confusion, here is Dan Didio's Facebook post regarding Tim Drake

Someone asks if not using Stephanie and changing Tim Drake from Robin to Red Robin is a personal attack on Chuck Dixon

Didio: No agenda here gentlemen, just moving the line the and characters in a new direction and working with those that best serve the universe now. best, DD

Didio: oh, and a little clarity on Tim, following Jason Todd's supposed death, Tim became Batman's apprentice, but took the name Red Robin instead of Robin because he did not want to use the name of a fallen hero. Damian, didn't have the same problem.

Well, there we go. Time will tell if it really becomes a major sticking point. I still kind of doubt it, though. Unless they really do some big changes to Tim's history, he'll still be Robin III to all his writers in fact, if not in name.

[MajorHoy]

To try to clear up some confusion, here is Dan Didio's Facebook post regarding Tim Drake

Someone asks if not using Stephanie and changing Tim Drake from Robin to Red Robin is a personal attack on Chuck Dixon

Didio: No agenda here gentlemen, just moving the line the and characters in a new direction and working with those that best serve the universe now. best, DD

Didio: oh, and a little clarity on Tim, following Jason Todd's supposed death, Tim became Batman's apprentice, but took the name Red Robin instead of Robin because he did not want to use the name of a fallen hero. Damian, didn't have the same problem.

Is that the same Facebook page where he once posted "None of the Crisis events ever happened", and then tried to backtrack a little the next day, saying he was in a rush to get to dinner when he first posted his message and hadn't quite posted what he really meant?

[earl]

Man for something that was supposed to streamline things, this is pretty confusing.

I just don't get why they did it this way instead of splitting the lines and doing some following the old continuity and starting a series over from scratch, which they only partially did.

Seems like half in/half out and no-one is happy.

[Fate's Faith]

Seems like half in/half out and no-one is happy.

Haven't gone by the name no-one in some time but yes, I am

[Mr. Holmes]

Actually, YOU are the one not getting this. Either on purpose or otherwise. Tim Drake was always part of the Batman team. Yes. He had a solo comic. Guess what, Dick Grayson had regular solo strips for years. Even in the 40s he had solo strips in non-Batman comics. There's even been a DC Archive that collects a lot of them. By your argument Dick Grayson was never part of the Batman team because he had his own solo comics. Just because they weren't married at the hip every month doesn't mean they weren't a team. Bruce raised Tim while his father wasn't able to and then adopted Tim as his son when Tim's dad died. Does that sound like he was some random person in Gotham that was never part of Batman's life? [/U][/I][/B]

1 - Calm the hell down

2 - You're grossly oversimplifying what I'm saying. This isn't just: Have solo comic ---> Not part of Batman team. Actually scratch that, you're not just oversimplifying it, you're completely misunderstanding it. I didn't say anything about not being part of the Batman family. This idea that Tim was always Red Robin...doesn't mean he's not part of the Batman family either.

3 - Dick Grayson had solo strips, but more often he was always tagging alongside Batman. Then when he became Nightwing, he was largely operating solo away from Batman, occasionally teaming up with Batman. So let's take Tim. As Robin, he operated solo at least 90% of the time, and occasionally teamed up with Batman. As Red Robin he does the same thing.

[Shadaloo]

We basically are getting a reboot, DC is just trying to make it look like it's the same, though it doesn't hold up that way at all.

Do people really think No Man's Land fits the new timeline?

I just can't call this a reboot. It's hacking and slashing at the continuity we've known since Year One and trying to tell us it's 'old and new'. It doesn't wash. It's the very definition of trying to have one's cake and eat it too.

Hard reboots both suck and alleviate this kind of stuff. Usually. Titans shows us if there is a hard reboot, it needs to be a properly hard reboot. No pussyfooting. Hard, fast, crash through or crash, there is no alternative, that jazz.

S'truth. I would have taken the severe suckage of starting over from the beginning rather than this, though.

In an ideal world (for me at least), DC announces a five-year plan or something, to start from the beginning, but reintroduce classic cast members over time without necessarily retreading old stories. If we must, we get two or so years of Dick as Robin before he leaves to stick with the Titans and eventually develop the Nightwing persona, maybe another year of Jason before he vanishes or dies. Bring in Tim as Red Robin then, if that's what they really want, then Cass as Black Bat. Keep Babs at Batgirl throughout if they're so dead-set against her being anything else, and reintroduce Stephanie as a CPU prodigy, with Barbara mentoring her into the Oracle role.

But, of course, this whole idea kind of nixes the notion of your given fifteen batbooks being on the shelf at once, so of course it wouldn't fly.

(No, that's not my ideal set-up or plotline, just shooting out examples and kind of advocating a structured plan over this terrible 'chip it away and resculpt it bit by bit' approach they're taking).

[MarkRodriguez12]

I kinda don't care what they say. Unless they go back and reprint the current B&R story and say Tim was never Robin and went straight to his solo career as Red Robin, then I'm not buying it. David Finch can come out and say Batman is gay and that won't erase the Batman/Catwoman image we all saw a few months back. it.
The 'Red' thing might not seem like a big deal since the name is so similar... but yeah.... it IS. Without Tim being Robin there would be no Robin then. Damian wouldn't be Robin if he didn't throw a hissy fit over finding out that Bats already had a kid under his wing when he came into the picture. Saying Tim was never Robin is like saying Dick just started out as Nightwing from the getgo.

Until they say that B&R has its own seperate continuity, I just don't buy it, no matter who at the DC offices says.

[Mr. Holmes]

I just can't call this a reboot. It's hacking and slashing at the continuity we've known since Year One and trying to tell us it's 'old and new'. It doesn't wash. It's the very definition of trying to have one's cake and eat it too.

No I agree, that's exactly what it is. At the same time, I just think that the universe that I've been reading for the last decade and a half basically ended with the reboot, and DC is just trying to put lipstick on a pig and pretend it's all the same.

[Darkspellmaster]

Gotta agree, just hard reboot the whole thing, or do the smart thing Ie what marvel did and create an ulitmate version on a different earth. You can then have you 52 play ground, and we can have our regular continutity. Heck just split the books down the middle 26 for the Reboot, and 26 for old continutiy. If you have to do double issues where you have more then one person's ongoing in a book. We'll even give you prime earth for the reboot and just stick the old continuity on Earth 7 and Earth 8 (for reborn earth 2). Would that really have been any worse then doing this? Seriously?

Also lets suppose hypothetically that DC decided that Tim shouldn't be connected to Bruce and the Bat family, what real reason then would he have to be Red robin? Unless we're going on the "I thought they were cool and decided to do it myself" way of thinking. Does this also mean that all of Tim's past relationships didn't happen, not just talking Steph here, but his friendships as well?