Darkseid Respect Thread

[Lord Bravery]

He didn't go around beating people up in Thanos Quest. I don't think he actually engaged in physical combat with anyone but Champion. It was mainly trickery and manipulation. My favourite was what he did to the Runner. Also the part with the Gardner was fantastic where Thanos genuinely begrudged what he had to do. Showed that he isn't just some cackling, one dimensional villain.

I wouldn't say Darkseid is more complex than Thanos really. Darkseid is a concept, there is no room for development or him changing. He is what he is. Thanos isn't. Doesn't mean Darkseid is less compelling. But yea, i wouldn't call him complex at all.

I think with Darkseid and Thanos you can basically sum up the differences between DC and Marvel. DC is more about their characters being Gods, concepts, myths. Whereas Marvel makes them more human and relatable, even nihilistic, nomadic demi Gods like Thanos.

And glad we can agree about Giffen, he's awesome. What the hell is he doing these days anyway?

[Desaad]

He didn't go around beating people up in Thanos Quest. I don't think he actually engaged in physical combat with anyone but Champion. It was mainly trickery and manipulation. My favourite was what he did to the Runner. Also the part with the Gardner was fantastic where Thanos genuinely begrudged what he had to do. Showed that he isn't just some cackling, one dimensional villain.

We never saw that play out at all, though. He just overtly stated it. Meh.

And that's still beating people up. That he didn't do it with his fists is irrelevant. His big genius plan was to go around and beat people up and take their lunch money.

I wouldn't say Darkseid is more complex than Thanos really. Darkseid is a concept, there is no room for development or him changing. He is what he is. Thanos isn't. Doesn't mean Darkseid is less compelling. But yea, i wouldn't call him complex at all.

Well you're certainly entitled to an opinion, but as I see it you couldn't be more wrong. Ideas are complex things. Morpheus is "Dream", Death is "Death". Would you really call those characters simplistic? Is there anything simple, or easy, about war? About freedom? About mercy? Order? Chaos?

I have to ask -- did you read the Kirby stuff? Did you read the Simonson stuff?

[Lord Bravery]

We never saw that play out at all, though. He just overtly stated it. Meh.

Didn't see what play out?

And that's still beating people up. That he didn't do it with his fists is irrelevant. His big genius plan was to go around and beat people up and take their lunch money.

Well it is kinda relevant though isn't it? Beating someone up and tricking them or destroying them mentally/emotionally are two different things.

Well you're certainly entitled to an opinion, but as I see it you couldn't be more wrong. Ideas are complex things. Morpheus is "Dream", Death is "Death". Would you really call those characters simplistic? Is there anything simple, or easy, about war? About freedom? About mercy? Order? Chaos?

I have to ask -- did you read the Kirby stuff? Did you read the Simonson stuff?

Not the Simonson stuff, but i've read the Kirby and Morrison stuff.

I'm not saying Darkseid is simplistic. I'm saying that as a character, he isn't that malleable. He can't really have a story where he seeks redemption. He can't really have a story where he might help out the heroes. He can't have a story where he sees the errors of his ways. Because that would go against the very concept that Darkseid is.

[Desaad]

Didn't see what play out?

Any real conflict. Any real emotion. It's poor storytelling.

Well it is kinda relevant though isn't it? Beating someone up and tricking them or destroying them mentally/emotionally are two different things. Was Darkseid simply beating Superman up when he brainwashed Kara?

He wasn't destroying them mentally and emotionally, though. He was still destroying them physically, for the most part. That he did it with the Time Gem instead of his fists doesn't change that all he did was go from place to place with the information he had gained from a cosmic macguffin called the Infinity Well and beat some pretty stupid kids up for their lunch money.

It's not as if it's Thanos' fault, anymore than the crappy Darkseid appearances are Darkseid's fault. But it's the pattern of all of Starlin's stories -- a pattern he follows strictly, monotonously. There is nothing divine about his cosmic forces, there is nothing clever about his geniuses. He's a writer, limited by his own abilities, and his abilities are meager (in my opinion, still!).

I'd hardly call Darkseid's brainwashing of Kara a genius move, either, by the way. Loeb has written some of the worst Darkseid stories of all time, behind Starlin and Conway and Kupperberg.

Not the Simonson stuff, but i've read the Kirby and Morrison stuff.

Well Morrison's Darkseid was hardly a fully developed character, I'll give you, but Kirby's certainly was. You don't need to look very hard to find it strewn throughout his work -- look at the way he cares about Orion, the way he cares about the young, his philosophy on the true nature of life, on the true nature of himself, his disaffection with a mechanized Apokolips, etc. There was so much more to that character than almost any other villain in comics, and it was carried through in the Simonson run.

I'm not saying Darkseid is simplistic. I'm saying that as a character, he isn't that malleable. He can't really have a story where he seeks redemption. He can't really have a story where he might help out the heroes. He can't have a story where he sees the errors of his ways. Because that would go against the very concept that Darkseid is.

I'd argue that the confines of your imagination are the real limitation, not the character. What you've just described are two very cliche character directions, and not directions I'd want Darkseid to go to in the first place (although, it should be noted, that he has done the former, at least, in OWAW and Cosmic Odyssey).

[Lord Bravery]

Any real conflict. Any real emotion. It's poor storytelling.

Disagreed. So does a lot of people considering it's a pretty well received story.

He wasn't destroying them mentally and emotionally, though. He was still destroying them physically, for the most part. That he did it with the Time Gem instead of his fists doesn't change that all he did was go from place to place with the information he had gained from a cosmic macguffin called the Infinity Well and beat some pretty stupid kids up for their lunch money.

Time Gem? No, he did it with his wits. For example he helped release the In Betweener from his prison, then left him stranded for Lord Chaos and Master Order to come sort him out. He deaged the Runner and presented him to the Collector, then just before he left he reaged the Runner again. The fight with Champion had a nice bit of meta commentary. Why the hell do super strong bricks always jump in the air to land a blow on someone?

It's not as if it's Thanos' fault, anymore than the crappy Darkseid appearances are Darkseid's fault. But it's the pattern of all of Starlin's stories -- a pattern he follows strictly, monotonously. There is nothing divine about his cosmic forces, there is nothing clever about his geniuses. He's a writer, limited by his own abilities, and his abilities are meager (in my opinion, still!).

It's your opinion and that's fine. But Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet are practically universally acclaimed so...

I'd hardly call Darkseid's brainwashing of Kara a genius move, either, by the way. Loeb has written some of the worst Darkseid stories of all time, behind Starlin and Conway and Kupperberg.

It could be really, execution was off but hey, that's Loeb. Superman forced to fight his own cousin? Anyone forced to fight their own cousin?

Well Morrison's Darkseid was hardly a fully developed character, I'll give you, but Kirby's certainly was. You don't need to look very hard to find it strewn throughout his work -- look at the way he cares about Orion, the way he cares about the young, his philosophy on the true nature of life, on the true nature of himself, his disaffection with a mechanized Apokolips, etc. There was so much more to that character than almost any other villain in comics, and it was carried through in the Simonson run.



I'd argue that the confines of your imagination are the real limitation, not the character. What you've just described are two very cliche character directions, and not directions I'd want Darkseid to go to in the first place (although, it should be noted, that he has done the former, at least, in OWAW and Cosmic Odyssey).

I'm not saying I want or think Darkseid should go in those directions. I'm not criticising the Darkseid character at all here. Simply pointing out differences between him and Thanos.

The reason Darkseid is so awesome is because he is a concept personified. Unflinching, unrepentant.

[Froggy]

I've read uh...I guess a range of Darkseid appearances, and I usually ike the ones where he doesn't DO much fighting but is just this menacing figure. The galactus crossover was cool though and I think pretty well done

that and in forever people when he builds that disneyland park and scares the crap out of that kid and his dad, or any instance he's just lounging in someone's house

[Zeeguy91]

Man i love Darkseid and Thanos' dialogue. It's poetic, snobby even.

And i wouldn't be surprised if he purposefully sabotaged Darkseid and co.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. But, regardless of some of the portrayals of Darkseid post-crisis, I'll always remember the portrayal from Superman:TAS and the speech from Final Crisis as examples of who Darkseid truly is. He's a force of nature. When it comes down to it, I'll always prefer Darkseid to Thanos, because that's just how I am, I go for the original and while Thanos may have his own defining characteristics, he still came in part from Darkseid. And you have to admit, even under an inferior writer's pen, Darkseid is a character that still has power and can intimidate people. Even Johns' depiction was able to portray some of that "force of nature" element that I cited and in the end, he mopped the floor with the League and they still didn't defeat him physically, they simply were able to send him home. And we all know that he's probably gonna be back. Trinity War looks like he could be involved.

[1505627]

i'd be very interested in reading an AU featuring a good darkseid

[Desaad]

It's your opinion and that's fine. But Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet are practically universally acclaimed so...

That's fine. There are plenty of stories I don't like that everyone else loves. The best selling comic right now is, what, JL by Geoff Johns and Jim Lee, and I don't really care for that book. I deal with it.

But Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos Quest are not 'universally acclaimed'. I've seen plenty of criticism for it, and thought Mark Gruenwald's "Cosmos In Collision" was by far the superior story.

You know how I know I'm not alone? George Perez stopped drawing the book halfway through because he felt the book was insanely repetitive. And he was right.

[Knight of DC]

Getting back into comics, I read many of Mighty Darkseid's stories and the atrocities he committed. However, none compare to the first one I saw from him:

[Desaad]

TAS was a great, but very pared down and simplistic, take on the characters.

It was fine for what it was, but I wouldn't be thrilled to see them relegated to such obvious, quotidian roles in the comics.

But I'm super demanding for the New Gods.

[Mr. Holmes]

TAS was a great, but very pared down and simplistic, take on the characters.

It was fine for what it was, but I wouldn't be thrilled to see them relegated to such obvious, quotidian roles in the comics.

But I'm super demanding for the New Gods.

Considering the target audience, I thought it was an apt adaptation. It was a big deal for characters to die then, but Darkseid's follow up to that is just "Had I known one human's death would pain you so,I would have killed more"

[El Sombrero]

I will want this so bad, but I do not want to pay the absurd $90 price tag. I've seen it on some sites for as low as $75 and even that's insane.

[speedline]

I will want this so bad, but I do not want to pay the absurd $90 price tag. I've seen it on some sites for as low as $75 and even that's insane.

$90 is not bad at all for a nice statue depending on size. Some can run $100's of dollars.

[El Sombrero]

$90 is not bad at all for a nice statue depending on size. Some can run $100's of dollars.

I know, I know...I guess it's more that I have personal problems paying $90 for what would ultimately amount to a display toy. I wanted to get the Justice League set and of course have Darkseid to go along with them but at these prices I don't know if I can justify it. When I was a kid action figures were less than $10. Granted, the figures DC is putting out now are way better than those were, but you get to a point where you just say "I don't think I can spend [x amount of dollars] on this." I guess now I know how people feel about $4 comics. That doesn't bother me too much but it's the same principle: something going above what you feel comfortable paying for.