So if I get this straight,Rogue is going to strange plant (Punishment by Majik for turning traitor?) to have to deal with the Thundercats and the Alien Swarm from Ben 10?
For the record, I bet that splash page with Ms Marvel happens in the middle of the book and Rogue sees how Carol regards her and will give her pause.
To your point about them working together in X-men Unlimited #29(?), that was very contrite and respectful of Rogue, and really a beautiful moment between the two. It makes #269 that much harder to swallow. What do you think?
Last edited by albone; 07-12-2012 at 07:33 PM.
IMO,it was Carol's 3 bumbling team mates in #267-268 that created the atmosphere of mistrust.Their attitude of arrogant self righteousness "pushed"Rogue from sitting on the fence and staying out of the conflict,to siding with,for lack of a better term "her own kind."I also think if Carol wanted to meet with Rogue covertly,Carol could have done a better job.Carol,who is supposed to be an expert in covert affairs looked more like a beginner.IMO,if Carol was afraid her phones were tapped,should have given a note to the Army engineer to give Rogue saying "We need to talk,meet me at this location at this time.Wear this piece of clothing so I know it's you.I guaranty your safety.Carol".The fake helicopter crash story and Carol suddenly showing looked like Rogue was being lured into a trap.(Didn't Carol ever hear of the "Duck test"? If it looks like a duck,swims like duck,quacks like a duck,it's probably a duck!) The other thing Rogue may have resented is the use of Carol to make her emotionally vulnerable.I understand Carol's resentment over Rogue touching her (Does Carol know about Rogue being in control of her powers now?How come Carol didn't ask why she didn't pass out when Rogue touched her?) In Rogue's opinion,the Avengers had declared war on the X-Men,to coin a phase,"the gloves were off."(I remember a quote from William T.Sherman from the Civil War:"If the people howl at my cruelty,I say war is war and not popularity seeking.")Yes,Rogue is remorseful at what happen between her and Carol,but at the same time doesn't want to be a prisoner of her past.
It's funny. As soon as they announce a book is being cancelled, I stop reading. It's like, what's the point.
Pot+Kettle - "This post went so full retard that it had to be quoted."
I don't know that I disagree with you on any particular point. It's sort of like we're both saying, 'you know, they both kinda handled that wrong.' If you think about it, the atmosphere of mistrust is at an all-time high for both of them, as you see in the first few pages of their fight, Rogue doesn't let Carol finish a sentence. And yeah, the D-team Avengers seriously bungled things up with their holier-than-thou attitude, which conversely, made me super disappointed in them.
What I come back to is Uncanny 203, page 4, Rogue is crying saying that she can never make up for what she's done to Carol, it being her greatest sin. In Unlimited, Rogue is super contrite when asking to use Carol's memories. In Ms. Marvel #9, Rogue says she's truly sorry for what she's done. And in Ms. Marvel #29, Carol actually has to *stick up* for Rogue to Carol's Mom and explain why she's not in a cage for nearly killing her. So does Rogue have remorse going on? Absolutely. In Gage's interview, Rogue is pretty determined not to let her own personal feelings get in the way and the new status quo slip away because of some words from Carol (and remember it plays out that Carol's right!) even if she is Rouge's greatest mistake. But here's the thing, even after all of that, I still think it was crossing a line to use her powers against Carol because on some level, that has to be the most terrifying thing Rogue could do to Carol, even if she's got control now and I still think that sort of flies in the face of the few comics that we brought up. In this case, that's got to be a straight villain move to remind someone of 'how I almost killed you,' paraphrasing Rogue from Uncanny 203. I get not wanting to be a prisoner of her own past (which for the last 20+ years has made it what I love about her...the 'Angel' quality, the no matter how much good I do...etc) but is Rogue the kind of person that says, 'Carol, I'm sorry for what I did, but really...get over it?' POW.
Honestly, I would love to see Rogue next issue say, 'Dude, I'm so sorry for what I did to you, and thrilled that you're not dead because of me because of this or that other time,' and in return, Carol finally forgiving Rogue. I think it'd be awesome.
Rogue has had to "wear the hair shirt" of what she did to Carol for 30 years now.I think in one sense,not allowing Rogue and Carol to "bury the hajet",over what happen so long ago,is a source of Rogue's character growth being stunted.Did you read Legacy #223?Danger has Rogue face a facsimile of UXM#269 Carol persona.Rogue tells "Carol":"You know,it's been a long time since Ah felt like Ah had anythin' to atone for.Ah paid for what I did to you,in the currency of pain and madness.We're square as far that goes." If you think about,the last time Carol and Rogue interacted (YES I know their last "encounter"was during the Children's Crusade!) Rogue was just trying to help Carol and Rogue got busted ribs for her trouble.Like I said in the Rogue Appreciation thread,I hope Rogue and Carol spend 80 to 90% of the next issue just talking things out.This sort of thing should have been done years ago.Talk about why what happened in Avengers Annual #10 took place.Talk about how things have progressed since for both of them.I want Mr.Gage to expand upon what Carol said "I don't hate you.I haven't in a while.In fact,I'm impressed with how far you've come."(Since UXM#171?)
Despite our different POVs, I think we're on the same page. I would love, love, love to see them bury the hatchet. While I think Rogue telling a faux-Carol she doesn't have anything to atone for is healthy, it's still not saying it to the real deal even if she's got a point. (btw, I DID miss Legacy #223, so thanks). And I do think that Rogue could be gun shy after Carol said some pretty mean things and busting her ribs.
I'm 100% with you on them spending next issue talking things out, and expanding on that great line about admiration and not hating...because I think the next step is forgiveness. If you think about, it's in Carol's best interest as well as Rogue's. Personally, I love them both to pieces.
I need to find this Rogue appreciation thread. XD Should we get together again after #270 comes out? ;)
As far as "forgiveness goes,I think Carol needs to take some of the blame herself for what happened to her.This might sound controversial,but here me out.You quoted from UXM#203 before.I'm going to use the same issue to try to prove my point.(I've got 9 of the 10 Essential X-Men TPB's so it makes for easy reference!)"She'd just settled in San Francisco.She used to be an Avenger... But since movin' west,she'd pretty much dropped out of the super hero racket.Ah think she was tryin' real hard to put those days behind her.Didn't know why.Didn't care." My point?For Carol to want to leave her super hero past behind her was not wrong,it wasn't realistic.Carol could not solve her problems by living in denial of who and what she was.Even if Carol wanted to deney her super hero past,she made enemies with long memories and wounded ego's.While Carol was believing she cut all her ties to her super hero past,an enemy from her past (Mystique) sent someone to attack her (Rogue).By trying to solve her problems by living in denial of who and what she was didn't make her problems go away.Instead it ended up setting Carol up for a big fall.This same sort of thing happened when she was going though her Alcoholic faise.She kept denying she had a problem until it almost destoyed her (and a plane load of people).
One thing Avengers Annual #10 does not explain is how Mystique and Rogue knew where Carol was living when every one else didn't know.Carol was keeping a low profile,trying to hide in plain sight,yet Mystique found where she was.Carol didn't tell the Avengers,didn't tell her parents and yet Mystique found her.
I'm going to start out with a disagreement so I can end on a good note...Carol just wanted to be left alone after her rape. She didn't ask to be mind wiped and then tossed off the Golden Gate Bridge to die. How Mystique and Rogue found out where she was? The Avengers couldn't seem to find her. Maybe Destiny? To your point, if she could lay low from the Avengers, she certainly didn't WANT to be found. And for Rogue's part, it doesn't make her any less of an assassin in that situation.
However, I do think Carol has some blame in getting in her own way...Carol has also hurt herself with a lot of self-pitying and wallowing. Harboring negativity like that can only burn you out. I think it was big of Carol to let Rogue know that she doesn't hate her anymore, but that's not the same as forgiveness, which I think they both need. If nothing else, it's time to let it go. Seriously, Rogue has notched 100X more good than bad. She's apologized to Carol as much as you can in this situation. Again, not to bring up old stuff, my main gripe was Rogue using her power drain on Carol, knowing that on some level it would be the most terrifying thing you could do to her. Story wise though, I think it needed to happen that way. And your point is super solid about Carol not going about this as best they could. Taking a step back, they both reacted in the way they thought best...and it was terrible for both of them.
I know I need them to let it go...I get gutted when I see them go at each other like this.
Last edited by albone; 07-13-2012 at 02:20 PM.