Looking back, was it a good idea or a bad idea that Norman Osborn was brought back?

[Alan2099]

The idea that Norman graduated from a Spidey villian to an Avenger one shows how far he's come. Especially he doesn't have wear a costume or a suit of armor to make someone's life a living hell, he can do it in a suit & tie, ala Lex Luthor. At this point tormenting Peter is beneath him, since there's now bigger fish for him to fry. As we've seen in the Dark Reign, to where he pissed off every hero possible.

So, he's a guy in a suit that doesn't like superheroes.

Why doe that require bringing back Norman? There are LOTS of people that are guys in suits that don't like superheroes. How about Kingpin? Kingpin is at least known to be a master planner. Or Dr. Octopus? He's managed to pull off some rather huge schemes without having to completley alter his personality to do so.

What does NORMAN bring to the formula that's so indispensable?

[EuphemismForSex]

I believe Moonstone and Victoria Hand have even mentioned that hes had to take a shitload of medication to keep the goblin personality at bay as much as possible

Exactly why Norman's promotion to head of everything is so much B.S. Just poor, poor writing.

I actually remember when Peter first unmasked, and really, I still don't quite understand the scene even now, but SHIELD agents were showing it to Norman while he had a freakout on the chair, an obviously violent outburst. He then began his journey towards Thunderbolts and everything that happened after that.

There just isn't any logic to the writing.

[Xenon]

A couple of things.

1: Sins Past doesn't actually require Norman's return. He only appears in a video that he made, and when Peter thinks about his (then) current location. But I don't want to turn this into an SP discussion thread.

You're...actually correct. Since it's all a bullshit retcon, his actions in the past are really the most important.

2: He actually did top killing Gwen. But Marvel never wants to really acknowledge that he caused Mary Jane to miscarry her and Peter's baby. (There's also the massive trolling with Aunt May. More than once. What the hell, Norman?!)

Of course now that's probably not an issue since the pregnancy is stated never to have happened in the post-OMD status quo. (But oh, what THAT does to continuity...)

Eh....killing a person you love vs. killing a person you love. but this can get into moral dissonance territory pretty easily so....yeah...

3: There are a few more major Osborn stories that you are missing. Wait until you get to "Evil Incarnate" and "Goblins At The Gate." (And Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man came later.)

Based on my limited understanding of those stories, I'll add Goblins at the Gate to the list (since that's based on the goblin legacy), but I'm not sure you really need him for Evil Incarnate anymore than any villain who knows his identity. That is the one where part of his master plan is to make Spider-Man look bad by having him beat up Norman and filming it right? Really, Kingpin could have done that almost. but even if we throw that in, that's like three stories at this point.

There were only going to be two options for a Clone Saga resolution, Harry or Norman.

Still think Harry was the right choice. Relaunch him as a villain who surpasses his father in screwing up Spidey's life but still feels completely inadequate. 121-122's sanctity is maintained and that night remains the lynchpin for both arch-enemies motivations. They could even have elevated Harry to Avengers level threat after doing a stint with the Thunderbolts. I don't know what Norman has that Harry couldn't have had after a few years to "mature" in Europe while being presumed dead.

Now Harry's resurrected too and doing absolutely nothing. A revival for someone who's intended to be a civilian is completely pointless.

What's really funny about all this is now that I've read up to the Clone Saga, I have to say Bob Harass could not have been more wrong about his decision to bring back Norman.At least according to Life of Reilly, Harass' big reasoning for it being Norman instead of Harry was that he didn't feel Harry was capable of a grander plan like that that Norman was. But even if you ignore the argument that stories like this exist to life up villains TO that level, Harry's limited plans were already far more advanced than anything Norman ever did. His slow torment of Peter and Mary Jane, the stupid robot parents, even the 'gotcha' at his will reading were all far more subtle and thought out than anything Norman EVER did (well, perhaps besides framing his business partner).

Yeah, Norman Osborn became a threat because he was always on the verge of coming unhinged. He's not the guy who pulls off a master plan, he's the guy who goes on a suicide run and tries to take everyone with him.

Yep. Prior to Eddie 'get me a padded house' Brock, Norman was THE crazy villain. While you can certainly argue at least some psychosis on the parts of many of his villains, Norman was just madness. He was obsessive and made copious notes and back-up plans, but when you stripped away all of the babbling his plan was

1) Get a flying thing.
2) Get a new weapon thing.
3) Kill Spider-Man with new weapon thing.
4) Become crime lord.
5) Cackle Maniacally.

So, he's a guy in a suit that doesn't like superheroes.

Why doe that require bringing back Norman? There are LOTS of people that are guys in suits that don't like superheroes. How about Kingpin? Kingpin is at least known to be a master planner. Or Dr. Octopus? He's managed to pull off some rather huge schemes without having to completley alter his personality to do so.

What does NORMAN bring to the formula that's so indispensable?

THIS.

[DeadXMan]

tommy lee jones nakid dictation in Thunderbolts and Norman's busy day in new ways to die was worth it

[Max_Power]

I like how the "Not worth it" option now is toe with toe with the "Totally worth it" option.

What I've noticed about the general mood of the thread is:

The guys that believe is great Norman was brought back think so mostly for his appearances OUTSIDE of Spider-Man titles.

The guys that believe that is terrible Norman returned think so mostly because we believe he harms Spider-Man.

I'm biased, but I say that the idea that he's a clone is the best solution for the divide. Being a clone would mean some self-loathing for good ol' Norman that might explain why he's so focused right now: He's trying to be better than his originator, but as he loathes himself due being a clone (he mentioned how he thought Ben Reilly was inferior in the Clone Saga), nothing he does really makes him feel he's better than the original Norman.

It also has the added benefit that since he was a nobody before his death to the larger Marvel Universe, him being a clone doesn't really detract of his current status.

[Xenon]

I like how the "Not worth it" option now is toe with toe with the "Totally worth it" option.

What I've noticed about the general mood of the thread is:

The guys that believe is great Norman was brought back think so mostly for his appearances OUTSIDE of Spider-Man titles.

The guys that believe that is terrible Norman returned think so mostly because we believe he harms Spider-Man.

I'm biased, but I say that the idea that he's a clone is the best solution for the divide. Being a clone would mean some self-loathing for good ol' Norman that might explain why he's so focused right now: He's trying to be better than his originator, but as he loathes himself due being a clone (he mentioned how he thought Ben Reilly was inferior in the Clone Saga), nothing he does really makes him feel he's better than the original Norman.

It also has the added benefit that since he was a nobody before his death to the larger Marvel Universe, him being a clone doesn't really detract of his current status.

This is my position as well. Him funding Miles warren is super random, but let's say he did just because he was kinda crazy. Or even better, let's say HARRY did it. Clone Osborn fixes all of the problems without messing up anything from his "resurrection" forward. And it's such a simple fix. It even gives Norman a new dimension and things to play off of.

It's unfortunate that the clone saga ****ed things so badly, but sadly the cure is actually MORE CLONES.

[classicgmer]

Yeah, Norman Osborn became a threat because he was always on the verge of coming unhinged. He's not the guy who pulls off a master plan, he's the guy who goes on a suicide run and tries to take everyone with him.

If trying to go to war with Thor & the rest of his asgardian buddies & manipulating an even more mentally troubled individual then he himself is in Sentry/Robert Reynolds who is capable of killing & causing alot of destruction doesn't strike you as somewhat suicidal then I don't know what would...Personally I still think Norman is plenty crazy...Is he motivated moreso by power then he has been in the past? Yes, yes he is BUT the dude is still far away from playing with a full deck of cards imo.

[Max_Power]

This is my position as well. Him funding Miles warren is super random, but let's say he did just because he was kinda crazy. Or even better, let's say HARRY did it. Clone Osborn fixes all of the problems without messing up anything from his "resurrection" forward. And it's such a simple fix. It even gives Norman a new dimension and things to play off of.

It's unfortunate that the clone saga ****ed things so badly, but sadly the cure is actually MORE CLONES.

Harry making clones of Norman... That's something we already saw and worked well. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having the Real Clone Saga become the new canon. With One More Day, the Clone Saga as we saw it couldn't really have happened, right? The miniseries would give us many benefits, including but not limited to a living Ben Reilly. I didn't like that it killed Gwen's clone, but with Spider-Island that is moot now.

Unfortunately the Real Clone Saga features a Spider-Baby and an intact marriage. So it can't be the new canon.

But I still like the idea of Harry using the Jackal's expertise to create a clone of Norman. Only one caveat: Since Norman killed Gwen and things tend to be found out off-panel in the Marvel Universe, it wouldn't be a stretch that Miles Warren found about it, so he would likely refuse to clone Norman or simply sabotage the clone.

Off-topic: Why haven't the Jackal and Norman Osborn had a showdown by now? That story practically writes itself and is such an obvious thing now that the Clone Saga is finally getting referenced again.

[Alan2099]

Off-topic: Why haven't the Jackal and Norman Osborn had a showdown by now? That story practically writes itself and is such an obvious thing now that the Clone Saga is finally getting referenced again.

Ah. Now here we have a motive for bringing back Norman. Revenge via proxy. Here's the idea. Jackal clones Norman and enchances him. Implants a few extra memories, amps up his physical stats, tosses in some additional programming so that Norman is more driven than before, and when Jackal thinks the time is right and Norman is at his best ... he tears everything down.

He approaches Norman and let's him know he's not a real person, maybe he even activates a few mental implants that allows him to take control of Norman. Then he let's Norman sweat it out for a bit. Norman can't trust his own memories. He can't be sure that what he's doing is actually want he wants to do and not what Jackal programmed into him. He starts falling apart mentally, and when Jackal is through with that, he activates an additional implant that makes him start to fall apart physically.

[Spidey_Legend]

Ah. Now here we have a motive for bringing back Norman. Revenge via proxy. Here's the idea. Jackal clones Norman and enchances him. Implants a few extra memories, amps up his physical stats, tosses in some additional programming so that Norman is more driven than before, and when Jackal thinks the time is right and Norman is at his best ... he tears everything down.

He approaches Norman and let's him know he's not a real person, maybe he even activates a few mental implants that allows him to take control of Norman. Then he let's Norman sweat it out for a bit. Norman can't trust his own memories. He can't be sure that what he's doing is actually want he wants to do and not what Jackal programmed into him. He starts falling apart mentally, and when Jackal is through with that, he activates an additional implant that makes him start to fall apart physically.

I like your idea.

[wolvie616]

I've only been reading since 2007, and I would say no for this reason

We've gotten stories featuring Norman Osborn, but aside from one issue in Thunderbolts (which I don't even read), I don't think we've gotten stories featuring the Green Goblin.

I've always heard so much hype surrounding the Goblin, and yet I've never really been able to see him in action. Even when he became the biggest bad in Marvel, It was as norman, and we didn't even get to see him go Goblin, or have a decent throwdown with Spiderman in that entire time!

[okpanic]

So, he's a guy in a suit that doesn't like superheroes.

Why doe that require bringing back Norman? There are LOTS of people that are guys in suits that don't like superheroes. How about Kingpin? Kingpin is at least known to be a master planner. Or Dr. Octopus? He's managed to pull off some rather huge schemes without having to completley alter his personality to do so.

What does NORMAN bring to the formula that's so indispensable?

Simply, legacy and contrast.

Norman is and never will be just a "guy in a suit that doesn't like superheroes". He will always be the Green Goblin, no matter if he's in the outfit and glider or rocking a three piece and sitting behind a desk. He has one of the most vicious legacies as a villain in comics and that's a shadow which he will never stop to cast no matter where you put him. The fact he's not throwing pumpkin bombs doesn't obscure that, if anything it highlights the simple fact that the Osborn persona will always be the mask.

That's what has made the villain so compelling since his turn in Thunderbolts and beyond - people see there's a guy who was the Green Goblin, who everybody knows was an unrelenting psychopath, appearing to operate as something close to normal as he can - but always an inch away from tipping completely over the edge.
Kingpin, Tombstone, Octopus - none of those characters have that element of unpredictability which makes as such a unique danger. It's this contrast which really highlights the characteristics which made the character in the first place: if he was just turned up to 11 all the time, he wouldn't be any different from a one note character such as Carnage.

[Xenon]

Ah. Now here we have a motive for bringing back Norman. Revenge via proxy. Here's the idea. Jackal clones Norman and enchances him. Implants a few extra memories, amps up his physical stats, tosses in some additional programming so that Norman is more driven than before, and when Jackal thinks the time is right and Norman is at his best ... he tears everything down.

He approaches Norman and let's him know he's not a real person, maybe he even activates a few mental implants that allows him to take control of Norman. Then he let's Norman sweat it out for a bit. Norman can't trust his own memories. He can't be sure that what he's doing is actually want he wants to do and not what Jackal programmed into him. He starts falling apart mentally, and when Jackal is through with that, he activates an additional implant that makes him start to fall apart physically.

That's pretty great as well. Jackal created a Norman Clone since he was already dead so he could have vengeance on him.....kinda? It makes sense from a crazy person perspective, and you can take this all sorts of places. Maybe he wanted to kill Norman outright but felt that was too easy. Maybe he DID kill hisfirst Norman Clone outright but wanted to torture Spider-Man some more. Or just like you said, he wants to **** with him by proxy.

Very clever. Let's do this.

Simply, legacy and contrast.

Norman is and never will be just a "guy in a suit that doesn't like superheroes". He will always be the Green Goblin, no matter if he's in the outfit and glider or rocking a three piece and sitting behind a desk. He has one of the most vicious legacies as a villain in comics and that's a shadow which he will never stop to cast no matter where you put him. The fact he's not throwing pumpkin bombs doesn't obscure that, if anything it highlights the simple fact that the Osborn persona will always be the mask.

That's a nice idea, but there's not really anything to support it. I mean, didn't he just go an entire Avengers arc without one putting on the mask? Green Goblin doesn't seem to be a factor at all. it's part of why using him is so mystifying,because they're not using the fact that his primary mode of operation is to put on a green mask and flit about on a broomstick. The fact that he's done bad things int he past isn't special. All villains have done bad things. Norman, frankly, is a bit of an underachiever when it comes to anyone except Spider-Ma. So he killed a girl. Big Deal. Kingpin kills two dozen people on Tuesday morning as a warmup.

That's what has made the villain so compelling since his turn in Thunderbolts and beyond - people see there's a guy who was the Green Goblin, who everybody knows was an unrelenting psychopath, appearing to operate as something close to normal as he can - but always an inch away from tipping completely over the edge.
Kingpin, Tombstone, Octopus - none of those characters have that element of unpredictability which makes as such a unique danger. It's this contrast which really highlights the characteristics which made the character in the first place: if he was just turned up to 11 all the time, he wouldn't be any different from a one note character such as Carnage.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of crazies in the Marvel U. Not sure how that makes Norman special.

[Alan2099]

Having him in a suit being generically evil while trying to highlight his past glories always make me think two things.


1) The writers screaming "Hey! his guy used to be important! He did something interesting once a long time ago!"
and
2) umm... if he's that crazy, why does he keep getting put in charge of things?

[Minerboh]

I would say that yes, it was worth it!
With the revelation that not only he onchentrated the clone saga from the very beginning but he also had a role in MJ's miscarriage he gave Lex Luthor a lesson or two on how you can make your arch enemy suffer big time!