Looking back, was it a good idea or a bad idea that Norman Osborn was brought back?

[Alan2099]

he gave Lex Luthor a lesson or two on how you can make your arch enemy suffer big time!

And all it took was completely changing his personality and retconning him to be responsible for several dozen things he originally had no involvement in or motive to be involved in!

[Minerboh]

And all it took was completely changing his personality and retconning him to be responsible for several dozen things he originally had no involvement in or motive to be involved in!

And what exactly Luthor did in order to make Superman suffer? Did he killed Lois? No! Did he killed Lana? No! Did he banged either of them? No. Did he seduced Clark's best friend into becoming a lunatic and then ended up killed? No.
Even if we accept the fact that Osborn was revealed as the mastermind of one of the most chaotic moments in Peter's life by retconn, this doen't change the fact that he actually did it. He made his worst enemy suffer. Heck he made Peter curse the day he ever crossed his paths with him!
All Luthor have ever done at his best is to make himself a horn into Superman's side, nothing more.
Osborn? Friend, he is something else entirely.

[President Kang]

I've gotten way too much more enjoyment outta Norman coming back as opposed to him being dead. I dunno why, but I frickin' LOVE his "BIG DEEP BREATH, PARKER!!!" on, like, page 2 of Mark Millar's Spider-Man when Gobby runs Spidey over with his Goblin glider. That just sticks in my head for some reason for being a very big Goblin moment, like it's kinda funny, he's addressing Parker personally, and it has him in full-on Goblin mode, schooling Spider-Man & he's flying on his glider!

Also "Death, blondes and victory."

I'll take him alive. I'm fine with that.

[EuphemismForSex]

And what exactly Luthor did in order to make Superman suffer? Did he killed Lois? No! Did he killed Lana? No! Did he banged either of them? No. Did he seduced Clark's best friend into becoming a lunatic and then ended up killed? No.
Even if we accept the fact that Osborn was revealed as the mastermind of one of the most chaotic moments in Peter's life by retconn, this doen't change the fact that he actually did it. He made his worst enemy suffer. Heck he made Peter curse the day he ever crossed his paths with him!
All Luthor have ever done at his best is to make himself a horn into Superman's side, nothing more.
Osborn? Friend, he is something else entirely.

That's the thing about retcons...

[destro]

Bad idea. Everything done with the character could have been done with Hobgoblin who was still alive at the time, or a new character. Except for the Gwen story which was horrible anyway.

And the way Norman is used now, he isn't even a Spider-Man villain anymore. He is so changed he hardly resembles his old self. He falls into the evil scheming business man role, and there were already plenty of characters around who wouldn't have needed a major personality change to be used that way.

[Heroid]

Marvel made it worthwhile with the immediate use of him to retcon the Clone Saga.

That said, I think his usefulness has also been over since the Clone Saga and the most useful thing they could do with him at this point would be to put him back in the ground. His continued existence and the fact that he has now never been brought to justice for Gwen's death make him this awkward liability for the franchise. Especially in light of Sin's Past. Peter really shouldn't be able to live with the fact that Norman is still running around out there alive and well while Gwen is still in the ground.

Sins Past was an awful, awful story and should have been retconned out of existence when they were retconning a bunch of other stuff out of existence. I can't even stand to read Spider-man now because of that story, even though I hear the series is good. Sins Past just ruined Gwen Stacy's legacy for no reason. There's no reason to leave her dead now because because her life and death don't matter. According to that story, she was just a sleazy little trollop who would hop in bed with a rich, middle-aged man for funsies. I can't believe that. It is counter to everything else that had ever been written about her.

If they would just say, "Sorry we published that tripe. It didn't happen. Forget about it," then maybe I could get back into Spider-man. But until then (or until they bring back Ultimate Peter Parker) I'm must going to avoid buying Spider-man comic books. Or any Marvel book for that matter. Oh well, that's just more money I can spend on something from Image.

[Kevinroc]

Sins Past was an awful, awful story and should have been retconned out of existence when they were retconning a bunch of other stuff out of existence. I can't even stand to read Spider-man now because of that story, even though I hear the series is good. Sins Past just ruined Gwen Stacy's legacy for no reason. There's no reason to leave her dead now because because her life and death don't matter. According to that story, she was just a sleazy little trollop who would hop in bed with a rich, middle-aged man for funsies. I can't believe that. It is counter to everything else that had ever been written about her.

If they would just say, "Sorry we published that tripe. It didn't happen. Forget about it," then maybe I could get back into Spider-man. But until then (or until they bring back Ultimate Peter Parker) I'm must going to avoid buying Spider-man comic books. Or any Marvel book for that matter. Oh well, that's just more money I can spend on something from Image.

Not a Sins Past thread. And Norman's return is more or less irrelevant to Sins Past as it exists (and any discussion of "it wouldn't have happened if Norman hadn't been brought back" gets too much into a theoretical discussion for which there is no answer.)

Also, exaggerate much? It ruined Spider-Man? Really? A story about a long-dead supporting character ruined Spider-Man? Yeesh. It takes all types, I guess.

[Xenon]

And all it took was completely changing his personality and retconning him to be responsible for several dozen things he originally had no involvement in or motive to be involved in!

This.

And what exactly Luthor did in order to make Superman suffer? Did he killed Lois? No! Did he killed Lana? No! Did he banged either of them? No. Did he seduced Clark's best friend into becoming a lunatic and then ended up killed? No.
Even if we accept the fact that Osborn was revealed as the mastermind of one of the most chaotic moments in Peter's life by retconn, this doen't change the fact that he actually did it. He made his worst enemy suffer. Heck he made Peter curse the day he ever crossed his paths with him!
All Luthor have ever done at his best is to make himself a horn into Superman's side, nothing more.
Osborn? Friend, he is something else entirely.

You hear that? That's the point flying over your head.

Not a Sins Past thread. And Norman's return is more or less irrelevant to Sins Past as it exists (and any discussion of "it wouldn't have happened if Norman hadn't been brought back" gets too much into a theoretical discussion for which there is no answer.)

Also, exaggerate much? It ruined Spider-Man? Really? A story about a long-dead supporting character ruined Spider-Man? Yeesh. It takes all types, I guess.

I told you before, it's the worst Spider-Man story ever published by Marvel. Hence, it gets powerful reactions from people.

As for ruining Spider-Man, it is true it doesnst fuck him up directly, but I can see how the fact that they let that story be published and stand and the implications of that fact could ruin things for people. Since it demonstrates that the people in charge of the character don't have any fucking clue about the character they're in charge of. A fact proven some three years later. =O

That's not how it works for ME, mind you, but hey, there you go. It's the little things that kill, as they say.

[Kevinroc]

I told you before, it's the worst Spider-Man story ever published by Marvel. Hence, it gets powerful reactions from people.

As for ruining Spider-Man, it is true it doesnst fuck him up directly, but I can see how the fact that they let that story be published and stand and the implications of that fact could ruin things for people. Since it demonstrates that the people in charge of the character don't have any fucking clue about the character they're in charge of. A fact proven some three years later. =O

That's not how it works for ME, mind you, but hey, there you go. It's the little things that kill, as they say.

This isn't really a Sins Past thread since Norman's return has nothing to do with that story (and any "it wouldn't have happened if Norman had never been brought back" discussion delves far too heavily into hypothetical scenarios.)

But whether it's actually the "worst" Spider-Man story is certainly debatable. (But I don't feel like debating that here since this isn't an SP thread.)

(The hyperbole is amusing to me though.)

[Wellman]

Honestly, a few of the stories have been massive stinkers but some of them, including my personal favorites 'A Death in the Family' and the two issues where Norman mind rapes Peter and leaves him beaten on a roof in ASM vol.2 #25 and PP: SM vol. 2 #25.

Thunderbolts and Dark Reign also lead to good stories so, yeah it was more then worth it.

[Kevinroc]

Honestly, a few of the stories have been massive stinkers but some of them, including my personal favorites 'A Death in the Family' and the two issues where Norman mind rapes Peter and leaves him beaten on a roof in ASM vol.2 #25 and PP: SM vol. 2 #25.

Thunderbolts and Dark Reign also lead to good stories so, yeah it was more then worth it.

You know Amazing (vol. 2) and PP: SM (vol. 2) #25 was good because it redefined the Spidey/Goblin relationship to the point that they used it in the Raimi movie AND the Spectacular cartoon. (The trade collecting that story plus the tie-in mini is called "Revenge Of The Green Goblin.")

[okpanic]

That's a nice idea, but there's not really anything to support it. I mean, didn't he just go an entire Avengers arc without one putting on the mask? Green Goblin doesn't seem to be a factor at all.

The end of the initial Thunderbolts arc and the Iron Patriot unmasking in Siege support it plenty.

It's been a factor in all of his apperances over the past few years, sometimes subtly and sometimes more obviously. It doesn't need to hit the reader over the head like an anvil every time he appears. "Oh hey, Norman Osborn, OR AS HE HAS BEEN KNOWN TO BE CALLED THE GREEN GOBLIN". It's expected to be in mind.

So he killed a girl. Big Deal.

Okay I'd just like to highlight that you've said "big deal" to the act of killing Gwen Stacy. Moving on.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of crazies in the Marvel U. Not sure how that makes Norman special.

My whole post which you quoted was about how he's not just crazy. Like I said, if he was just cuckoo for cocoa puffs 24/7, it'd be boring. It's the current light and shade to his villainy and the legacy that he has which establishes him out from the crowd. Osborn just in a suit isn't the big threat, though that facade and how he's become so manipulative through have provided fun reads and made the Dark Reign status quo worth following. It's what's always underneath which makes him a danger, and that's a subtext you'll find if you look hard enough (which isn't hard at all, really).

[Heroid]

As for ruining Spider-Man, it is true it doesnst fuck him up directly, but I can see how the fact that they let that story be published and stand and the implications of that fact could ruin things for people. Since it demonstrates that the people in charge of the character don't have any fucking clue about the character they're in charge of. A fact proven some three years later. =O

That's not how it works for ME, mind you, but hey, there you go. It's the little things that kill, as they say.

Exactly. For my generation, the death of Gwen Stacy was the turning point in Peter Parker's life. The fact that the people at Marvel have no more regard for the character than to retcon her into a slut is repulsive to me. If they can twist a character like Gwen Stacy, then no other character is safe. I don't trust Marvel with the characters I've loved all my life, and rather than see them misused like this, I'd just as soon quit reading their books.

Norman Osborne should not have been brought back. There have been other characters created over the years that have filled the role he played in Spider-man. And making him Iron-President (or whatever they called him) like they did? It went completely against Marvel's tradition of keeping their comic book world as close to the real world as possible. The Marvel U. used to feel like it could take place in the universe we live in, but now? Nope. It's as fantastic and unbelievable as DC's universe.

[Max_Power]

Well, it seems that the idea of Miles Warren battling (or getting a pretty devastating revenge on) Norman Osborn is a more popular idea idea than I anticipated. But this is Marvel, popularity mandates things, and I don't really expect them letting the Jackal get the upper hand in any revenge plot against Osborn. In fact, I expect the contrary: Miles does his worst against Norman, loses, gets killed, and thanks to his infinite supply of clones, later down the road we find that he was never killed, only one of his clones. I'd like a real showdown where the result can't be just guessed, but I think in reality it will be wasted, if it ever happens.

On something unrelated I think I didn't emphasize in this thread enough about how Norman's return screwed Harry. I already said that his resurrection made Harry look pretty stupid, but that's only prior to Harry's own death. However, after Harry's own return and also thanks to the Mind Wipe, it seems that Harry has run out of stories: He can no longer be a Goblin now that his motivation is gone: His father is back, so he can't still be angry with Spider-Man. But even if he was, he no longer remembers Spider-Man's secret identity, so he can never battle Spider-Man personally again, meaning that he couldn't even be that dangerous. Any Goblin can make his job better now.

In a way, the Mind Wipe was worse than Norman's return (for the current Harry): He can't even be guilt tripped to make amends towards Peter now that he doesn't remember who he attacked as the Goblin. And unlike past amnesia stories, he doesn't seem likely to ever remember.

And the stories we got out of Harry's return? He confronted his father and met his half-brother. That was basically it. And those stories didn't feel that rewarding in the end.

So Harry returned basically for nothing? Sadly, it seems that way. But he was a nice support character before he became a foe, hopefully some writer can remember that and use Harry again (Although part-friend, part-foe Harry was the best Harry).

Also, exaggerate much? It ruined Spider-Man? Really? A story about a long-dead supporting character ruined Spider-Man? Yeesh. It takes all types, I guess.

Well you are not talking about just any long-dead supporting character. You are talking about THE long-dead supporting character whose return CAN ruin Spider-Man. At least according to most fans AND most writers. Since this character holds so much power over ruining the franchise, it's only personal preference what indeed does ruin the franchise that is done with the character. But even if it isn't, we comic fans like to exaggerate a whole lot, so complaining against exaggerations is moot.

Just so you now, and because it seems relevant to the thread, I think the franchise has been ruined the moment Norman Osborn returned. I can still make some entertainment out of the comics, but I no longer care about reading them monthly without failing, about continuity gaffes and some other stuff. I feel bad that I don't care that much, that's the reason I'm trying to rekindle my love in discussion threads, but I'm failing for the most part. The discussions seem more entertaining than the comics themselves these days, to be blunt about it. And yes, I find that rather sad.

[Xenon]

The end of the initial Thunderbolts arc and the Iron Patriot unmasking in Siege support it plenty.

It's been a factor in all of his apperances over the past few years, sometimes subtly and sometimes more obviously. It doesn't need to hit the reader over the head like an anvil every time he appears. "Oh hey, Norman Osborn, OR AS HE HAS BEEN KNOWN TO BE CALLED THE GREEN GOBLIN". It's expected to be in mind.

You misunderstand. The problem is not that we know that, the problem is that him being that particular villain has no impact on his future actions. He's a bad guy with a bad history, but ANY bad history will do. There's nothing special about the fact that he was the GREEN GOBLIN. That fact doesnt' inform the story. What informs the story is that he was a bad guy and remains a bad guy. While yes, they're using Norman to fill that role, and he DOES fill that role, the generic nature of it

Okay I'd just like to highlight that you've said "big deal" to the act of killing Gwen Stacy. Moving on.

Because in the context of people who aren't in love with Gwen Stacy, it isn't. It's the great tragedy of Peter's life (well, his third), but it's just an obituary for Captain America. It's a statistic that Iron Man reads when he looks up the statistics. it's nothing more than one more murder. And these people deal with murderers every day of the week.

My whole post which you quoted was about how he's not just crazy. Like I said, if he was just cuckoo for cocoa puffs 24/7, it'd be boring. It's the current light and shade to his villainy and the legacy that he has which establishes him out from the crowd. Osborn just in a suit isn't the big threat, though that facade and how he's become so manipulative through have provided fun reads and made the Dark Reign status quo worth following. It's what's always underneath which makes him a danger, and that's a subtext you'll find if you look hard enough (which isn't hard at all, really).

Which has nothing to do with the Green Goblin. Which isn't somethign that is uniquely Norman. Pretty much half of all the villain fall into this camp. Either they're outright insane like Eddie Brock, or they're subtly insane like Norman. Again, lots of crazies like this in the Marvel U (like Dr. Doom), that doesn't make him special.

Well, it seems that the idea of Miles Warren battling (or getting a pretty devastating revenge on) Norman Osborn is a more popular idea idea than I anticipated. But this is Marvel, popularity mandates things, and I don't really expect them letting the Jackal get the upper hand in any revenge plot against Osborn. In fact, I expect the contrary: Miles does his worst against Norman, loses, gets killed, and thanks to his infinite supply of clones, later down the road we find that he was never killed, only one of his clones. I'd like a real showdown where the result can't be just guessed, but I think in reality it will be wasted, if it ever happens.

I don't think anyone necessarily is advocating a particular end for that idea. Miles doesn't have to be successful completely. In one big way, just revealing to Norman that he's a clone is success in itself. You can write that story in any number of different ways with any number of different endings. You can write one where Miles totally breaks Norman. You can write one where Norman doesn't believe any of it. Or something in between or compeltely different. It can be a springboard to give new Motivation to Norman. Or something. Lots of choices.

On something unrelated I think I didn't emphasize in this thread enough about how Norman's return screwed Harry. I already said that his resurrection made Harry look pretty stupid, but that's only prior to Harry's own death. However, after Harry's own return and also thanks to the Mind Wipe, it seems that Harry has run out of stories: He can no longer be a Goblin now that his motivation is gone: His father is back, so he can't still be angry with Spider-Man. But even if he was, he no longer remembers Spider-Man's secret identity, so he can never battle Spider-Man personally again, meaning that he couldn't even be that dangerous. Any Goblin can make his job better now.

Yep.

In a way, the Mind Wipe was worse than Norman's return (for the current Harry): He can't even be guilt tripped to make amends towards Peter now that he doesn't remember who he attacked as the Goblin. And unlike past amnesia stories, he doesn't seem likely to ever remember.

Ehhhhh, I don't know about that. The mind wipe may have been the last thing, but Harry's story was over when he died. Super Over when Norman came back. The mind wipe just makes him more irrelevant since he can't even act as a confidant, but again, that's jsut making up a new role for him. He was never a confidant. The only time he's known is when he was trying to kill him.