Looking back, was it a good idea or a bad idea that Norman Osborn was brought back?

[Kevinroc]

This question on Marvel Editor Tom Brevoort's Formspring got me thinking.

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort...07016725672083

Q: "It's been a number of years since it happened but I'm curious what your thoughts are on Norman Osborn. Did it turn out to be a good idea to bring him back or do you think it was a mistake?"

A: "Lemonade. I think bringing him back (and a number of other characters who had been dead more-or-less permanently) was one of the things that really damaged the credibility of death in our stories. But that said, once he was back, we told a bunch of really good stories with him, so there's that."

We all know Norman was brought back to get Marvel out of The Clone Saga. They needed somebody big enough, bad enough, and around long enough to manipulate everyone. And they needed somebody who knew Peter was Spider-Man and wanted to do such a thing (so saying "Dr. Doom did it" wouldn't have worked). Since Norman's return, he has left a major impact not just on Spidey but on the entire Marvel Universe. Some highlights include "Death In The Family" (marked in the trades as "Return Of The Goblin"), Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man, the Warren Ellis Thunderbolts, "New Ways To Die," the entire Dark Reign era, Dark Avengers, Siege, the Osborn mini, and the Bendis "Return Of HAMMER" story.

Was the trade-off worth it? I agree with Brevoort that bringing Norman back did damage the credibility of death in the Marvel Universe but that they did get some good stories since they brought him back.

[Mister Mets]

It was ultimately worth it.

With his return, he became Spider-Man's arch-enemy. That's something the character was missing. Venom didn't have the history. And Doctor Octopus had lost his grandeur.
Osborn also went on to be a major player in the Marvel Universe.

And then there are all the really good comic book with Osborn's return.

[Scott Taylor]

Marvel made it worthwhile with the immediate use of him to retcon the Clone Saga.

That said, I think his usefulness has also been over since the Clone Saga and the most useful thing they could do with him at this point would be to put him back in the ground. His continued existence and the fact that he has now never been brought to justice for Gwen's death make him this awkward liability for the franchise. Especially in light of Sin's Past. Peter really shouldn't be able to live with the fact that Norman is still running around out there alive and well while Gwen is still in the ground.

[MrRoussis]

I'd say yes because he actually became something more than a Spidey villain. I enjoyed the way he was handled in Dark Avengers and then Post Secret Invasion. That being said, i felt they really did abandon a lot of ideas where he would eventually return to his crazy goblin roots, and he would actually become something more than bad guy in a business suit. I remember that meeting he had with all the big bad guys (Loki was still a girl at this point), and thinking this is going to be great! But nothing really came out of his powerful position. Ideas were abandoned as frequently as the Thunderbolts line ups changed.

Would like to see him have some more interaction with Peter at this point though. Just to re establish the relationship despite not knowing he is Peter Parker of course. This would also facilitate Harry's re emergence.

[MrRoussis]

Marvel made it worthwhile with the immediate use of him to retcon the Clone Saga.

That said, I think his usefulness has also been over since the Clone Saga and the most useful thing they could do with him at this point would be to put him back in the ground. His continued existence and the fact that he has now never been brought to justice for Gwen's death make him this awkward liability for the franchise. Especially in light of Sin's Past. Peter really shouldn't be able to live with the fact that Norman is still running around out there alive and well while Gwen is still in the ground.

Don't see what Peter, being who is would say or do about it. He won't kill him and he is pretty much untouchable. Their relationship hasn't really been clarified as of yet. He's a bad guy overall, but is the goblin stuff just him over the edge, making him not wholly responsible for that action. I'm presenting this idea simply because they played with it a lot in the past and Peter could easily consider it as an option when approaching the Osbourn situation.

[EuphemismForSex]

I'd say yes because he actually became something more than a Spidey villain.

I'd say no for that very reason. On the whole, there have been good stories while he's been back, but I prefer when they're contained within ASM.

Who knows, Norman could've been a good world-class villain if his ascension to that level wasn't seeping with stupidity and nonsense.

Also the Norman and Peter relationship can't happen, as Norman now wants to kill Peter.

[MrRoussis]

Ive read so much SM that i don't remember anything about Norman wanting to kill Peter for any reason. I feel like it was good for the character. It gave him another dimension that didn't previously exist. Doc Ock worked nicely in an Iron Man story because it did the same thing. It just made them relevant outside of Spideyverse. You can't deny that fact despite your preference.

I don't understand the stupidity and nonsense he succumbed to that your speaking about.

[Venomous Mask]

Revenge of the Green Goblin and Return of the Goblin say it was worth it.

[oldschool]

Worth it. Though an argument can be made for Doc Ock, Gobby is Spidey's Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doc Doom. When you think arch-foe, you just go to Norman, end of story. Stern introduced Hobby to replace Norman after it was clear that neither Harry nor Bart Hamilton had the necessary gravitas to replace Ol' Norm but----beloved though Hobby was and is----he lacked the long, personal history that Norman had with Peter; they needed each other and he had to come back.

As others have said, some great stories have arisen from his return though I am not a fan of his being an Avengers-level villain. Here's hoping when next he is seen he is wearing green and purple jammies riding a glider.

[EuphemismForSex]

Ive read so much SM that i don't remember anything about Norman wanting to kill Peter for any reason. I feel like it was good for the character. It gave him another dimension that didn't previously exist. Doc Ock worked nicely in an Iron Man story because it did the same thing. It just made them relevant outside of Spideyverse. You can't deny that fact despite your preference.

I don't understand the stupidity and nonsense he succumbed to that your speaking about.

Peter made "the list" in, well... the issue of Dark Reign The List for... leaking secret Osborn stuff, I imagine. I don't remember the details. Norman Osborn himself is some sort of fugitive/terrorist, so I don't see him interacting with Peter in any way other than trying to murder him.

And Doc Ock working outside ASM actually made a little more sense in that other nations and groups outside of the good guys actually opposed him. You have to suspend 99% of your disbelief to find any logical reason why the world population would think Norman Osborn, Top Cop was a good idea. Hence stupidity and nonsense. If you can get over that, then you're in luck. I always found it too stupid to ignore.

[MrRoussis]

They got around that because the president backed him if i remember correctly. It also didnt help that Iron Man failed on every level, and Nick Fury was missing in action for what felt like forever only to disappear yet again.

It wasn't too much of a stretch in my opinion because he played the reformed criminal in that Secret Invasion event. Prior to that he was heading up the Thunderbolts so as far a everyone was concerned, at least the major authorities, he was good for the role. Don't know if you were reading that book at the time which would have given more credibility to the choice. The public is little more than sheep in comics really. JJJ and SM is a perfect example of that hate for hates sake.

[MrRoussis]

I will say that the stories he has been involved in have been mostly bad rather than good. In terms of affecting the world and characters that live in the Marvel U, he really didn't have a lasting impact. Dark Avengers went on too long cause they didn't want to stick with this really great idea of villains running the show. They also couldn't figure out how to make them, at the very least, deluded into thinking they were the real good guys to create interesting parallels. I honestly feel like it was all wasted, and Norman, who played the role so well because he has always had a kind of Luthor aspect to his character, just hung out cause he was a familiar and relevant face to Spidey fans and Marvel fans as a whole. Marvel Knights was good but was a let down with its conclusion. It also made Scorp Venom which was beyond frustrating. Siege was god awful and was as irrelevant as Fear Itself. His best has remained in early Thunderbolts and his appearances in SM including Sins Past. I say that because well, as much as it enraged a vast majority, he would be the only one capable of doing something like that. Even if it was stupid. Whatever...

[Badou]

His continued existence and the fact that he has now never been brought to justice for Gwen's death make him this awkward liability for the franchise. Especially in light of Sin's Past.

This is why I would have to ultimately say no. How that hasn't been dealt with properly just makes me unable to see the character differently. Then when you add in the awful Sin's Past story and how that messed up those classic stories and character relationships, to me, and then how they tried to completely ignore it and sweep it under the rug really ruined Spiderman for me. So while there have been some that used the character well, like expanding his reach outside the Spiderman line, in the end how he was used in some poor stories is what turned me off Spiderman comics completely in the end.

[Kevinroc]

This is why I would have to ultimately say no. How that hasn't been dealt with properly just makes me unable to see the character differently. Then when you add in the awful Sin's Past story and how that messed up those classic stories and character relationships, to me, and then how they tried to completely ignore it and sweep it under the rug really ruined Spiderman for me. So while there have been some that used the character well, like expanding his reach outside the Spiderman line, in the end how he was used in some poor stories is what turned me off Spiderman comics completely in the end.

Sins Past could have happened regardless if Norman had been brought back or not. (But a discussion on SP will derail this thread rather completely. Just pointing out that Norman's return doesn't effect SP one way or the other.)

[Darman456]

Worth it. Though an argument can be made for Doc Ock, Gobby is Spidey's Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doc Doom. When you think arch-foe, you just go to Norman, end of story. Stern introduced Hobby to replace Norman after it was clear that neither Harry nor Bart Hamilton had the necessary gravitas to replace Ol' Norm but----beloved though Hobby was and is----he lacked the long, personal history that Norman had with Peter; they needed each other and he had to come back.

As others have said, some great stories have arisen from his return though I am not a fan of his being an Avengers-level villain. Here's hoping when next he is seen he is wearing green and purple jammies riding a glider.

"What oldschool said" :D