Batman & Robin #11 Preview/ Discussion

**bat39** · 07-11-2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze

I wouldn't say Bruce is tolerating Damain's behavior as he isn't turning a blind eye to it. Everytime Damian has crossed the line, he has drilled into him for it. Bruce is being patient with Damain because he is trying to change him. I believe if Damian were to show no signs of wanting and trying to change, he would strip the Robin suit from him and discontinue fighting with him.

Jason sees no need to change who he is or how he operates. He is an adult and beyond Bruce's ability to mold so Bruce has severed ties.

I agree that Damian has shown a willingness to change, so you're point is totally valid. And I guess Bruce might also be willing to make SOME allowances for Damian because of his upbringing.

But then, why doesn't he make allowances for Jason as well? After all, Jason didn't have the most ideal childhood to begin with...he was then beaten to death and came back to life! Even Tim was willing to cut Jason some slack given what he's been through...why not Bruce?

(Though there was the part in 'Battle of the Cowl' where, in his holographic will, Bruce does offer Jason a chance to undergo therapy and get 'cured').

**Seattle Freeze** · 07-11-2012, 09:34 AM

Bruce may understand why Jason has become what he is. But even if he understands it, it doesn't mean he can actively condone it. Afterall, if he has a do not kill EVER rule, can he be allied with someone who does without having blood on his own hands?

I think Bruce has made some allowances for Jason. Afterall, even though he doesn't associate with him, Bruce doesn't consider him an enemy. Plus, when the owls attacked, Jason's contact info was in the bat computer.

As I said, though, I believe the main difference is Jason cannot/will not change. Even JPV was willing to stop his killing ways.

**Dark_Tzitzimine** · 07-11-2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze

Bruce may understand why Jason has become what he is. But even if he understands it, it doesn't mean he can actively condone it. Afterall, if he has a do not kill EVER rule, can he be allied with someone who does without having blood on his own hands?

I think Bruce has made some allowances for Jason. Afterall, even though he doesn't associate with him, Bruce doesn't consider him an enemy. Plus, when the owls attacked, Jason's contact info was in the bat computer.

As I said, though, I believe the main difference is Jason cannot/will not change. Even JPV was willing to stop his killing ways.

Actually, Jason was eavesdropping Alfred's call. He wasn't called at all, plus Jason choose to help against the Talons for Tim's Sake not Bruce's. I'm not really sure about Bruce making allowances for Jason but with the whole Leviatan and Court of Owls business he don't got the time for that.

**Godlike13** · 07-11-2012, 11:06 AM

LoL oh man, the beginning was great.

Love it!

Everything after though, seemed just less interesting to me. Still, not at all bad or anything.

**Whip Whirlwind** · 07-11-2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine

Actually, Jason was eavesdropping Alfred's call. He wasn't called at all, plus Jason choose to help against the Talons for Tim's Sake not Bruce's. I'm not really sure about Bruce making allowances for Jason but with the whole Leviatan and Court of Owls business he don't got the time for that.

I don't really get why he holds so much against Jason. I can understand him blaming himself for how Jason turned out, but at this point is it just that he WAS following the bat code and now he isn't?

Can't know for sure until more of Jason's backstory is fleshed out, but currently his M.O. seems to be to avoid killing, unless someone comes at him with deadly force that he can't handle non lethally. Basically, similar to a cop or soldier. If the "kill all criminals" part of his past is gone, there's no reason why Bruce should judge Jason anymore than he would Gordon.

**Nite-Wing** · 07-11-2012, 11:51 AM

Damian really is the best robin ever now in my book.
You just don't do tasteless things like leaving a crowbar on someone's pillow like that.

**Seattle Freeze** · 07-11-2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind

Basically, similar to a cop or soldier. If the "kill all criminals" part of his past is gone, there's no reason why Bruce should judge Jason anymore than he would Gordon.

But soldiers and cops have the legal right to kill when such force is warranted. Vigilantes don't. the bat family operates in a legal gray area but killing would definitely cross the legal line. I think the fact that Gordon has the right under the law to kill makes a difference.

But this does bring up the question- Has Gordon ever killed anyone?

**Mr. Holmes** · 07-11-2012, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by bat39

...but I've never seen Bruce as the kind of guy who would let blood ties get in the way of his principles.

That's because this is the first time he's actually dealing with his blood ties since his parents' death.

**Dark_Tzitzimine** · 07-11-2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze

But soldiers and cops have the legal right to kill when such force is warranted. Vigilantes don't. the bat family operates in a legal gray area but killing would definitely cross the legal line. I think the fact that Gordon has the right under the law to kill makes a difference.

But this does bring up the question- Has Gordon ever killed anyone?

Still, Jason's killings in RHATO are as last resort I mean, He even give Suzie Zu another chance to walk out unscathed (you could make the case for the Mercenaries/soldiers that killed when he freed Roy in Qurac but at the end it was he and Roy or them) or against something inhuman. And as far as I know, Batman's code only counts for humans.

**Mr. Holmes** · 07-11-2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine

Still, Jason's killings in RHATO are as last resort I mean, He even give Suzie Zu another chance to walk out unscathed (you could make the case for the Mercenaries/soldiers that killed when he freed Roy in Qurac but at the end it was he and Roy or them) or against something inhuman. And as far as I know, Batman's code only counts for humans.

Yeah but Batman doesn't even approve of killing as a last resort. It's why Joker continues to walk free after killing hundreds of people. It's hilarious how Jason now kills in the same vein of James Bond or the Shadow, but he's considered the rogue member of the Batman family.

**Jason456701** · 07-11-2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine

Still, Jason's killings in RHATO are as last resort I mean, He even give Suzie Zu another chance to walk out unscathed (you could make the case for the Mercenaries/soldiers that killed when he freed Roy in Qurac but at the end it was he and Roy or them) or against something inhuman. And as far as I know, Batman's code only counts for humans.

Does Batmans code of non killing only count with humans I really do want to know.

**Seattle Freeze** · 07-11-2012, 12:09 PM

I'm not sure if Bruce's code only extends to humans. I know in the case of the undead talons, he wasn't worried about 'killing' them. So in the case of humans, does it only matter if they are natural, non-mutated humans? In that regard, if he wasn't worried about killing a Talon, shouldn't it not matter if he kills Ras al Ghul since his life has been extended by unnatural means?