Batman #11 Preview/ Discussion

[Auguste Dupin]

So basically even down to the finale, this story lives up to the idea that it's basically RIP/Hush rolled into one.

Well....it sure isn't groundbreaking.

[Concept Coop]

So basically even down to the finale, this story lives up to the idea that it's basically RIP/Hush rolled into one.

No.

10 char

[Desaad]

This was very well executed in every technical respect, which is not something you could say about "Hush".

[Mr. Holmes]

No.

10 char

Well said, bro.

[dipic]

Loved the dialog between Bruce and Dick at the end. Despite some of the problems I had for the story as a whole, I enjoyed this final issue as a capper, which really raised it all up for me. Really solid. (And goddamn if Capullo hasn't become one of my favorite artists now.) Really looking forward to the Joker arc.

[Concept Coop]

Well said, bro.

There have been multiple threads dedicated directly to your question. If you are looking to have a legitimate conversation, and not just to have your feelings on a book you haven't finished justified, I would use one of said threads.

But, to answer your question, I personally think the book has nothing overly in common with the titles you mentioned. Specifically the ending - unless a great deal of stories (in general, not Batman or even superhero) are Hush/RIP rip-offs by not providing a conclusive answer to all questions - is not closely tied to either title.

[Mr. Holmes]

There have been multiple threads dedicated directly to your question. If you are looking to have a legitimate conversation, and not just to have your feelings on a book you haven't finished justified, I would use one of said threads.

No, I can discuss my "feelings" on the book on any thread relevant to the book.

But, to answer your question, I personally think the book has nothing overly in common with the titles you mentioned. Specifically the ending - unless a great deal of stories (in general, not Batman or even superhero) are Hush/RIP rip-offs by not providing a conclusive answer to all questions - is not closely tied to either title.

Except I'm not just talking about the ending.

[Auguste Dupin]

There have been multiple threads dedicated directly to your question. If you are looking to have a legitimate conversation, and not just to have your feelings on a book you haven't finished justified, I would use one of said threads.

But, to answer your question, I personally think the book has nothing overly in common with the titles you mentioned. Specifically the ending - unless a great deal of stories (in general, not Batman or even superhero) are Hush/RIP rip-offs by not providing a conclusive answer to all questions - is not closely tied to either title.

Well, to be fair, there is this whole "I'm your relative/best pal turned evil, so let's you and I fight until I mysteriously disapear in a way that may or may not have killed me, so you can end up having a little conclusive talk with Superman/Alfred to wrap things up" that makes a little more similar than just "not giving the anwsers".
I will point out though that I found it to be an okay ending, and I'm not complaining.

[Concept Coop]

No, I can discuss my "feelings" on the book on any thread relevant to the book.

No bother to me. Just pointing you in a direction I feel would give you a better answer to your question.

Except I'm not just talking about the ending.

As I said, I don't find the stories overly related outside of the characters, but some do.

[TheOneTrueBatman]

Ha, i just knew the they were gonna end it with a is he or isn't he. So now that its all over, i can honestly say that i thoroughly enjoyed this Bat Tale.

Is it possible to say I can and can't say I enjoyed the story?

I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in the DC meeting room when they discuss just how far these people are allowed to go when telling a story. It just seems like the "is isn't he" since Hush is the Bat-Writer tradition.

Ever since Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive it just seems like the writers have forgotten what ultimately made that book so great. It questioned everything we knew about Batman, Bruce, and his mission but they also resolved everything so air tight that it made us feel that yes indeed BATMAN WAS THE WORLD'S GREATEST DETECTIVE.

Hush - Is he or isn't he Tommy Elliot.
Jason Todd - Is he or isn't he alive and Jason Todd.
Hurt - Is he or isn't he Thomas Wayne, A Wayne, Darkseid, or what the hell exactly? Did he die in the helicopter crash or didn't he?
Lincoln March - Is he or isn't he Bruce's dead brother who the Court Of Owls dug up after burial and used their mystery nanotech to bring back but left him bonkers?
The Court Of Owls - Are they all dead or do they operate elsewhere than just Gotham and just how far back does it reach?

I really wished and hoped that Nathaniel Wayne would have been the person who started the Court and they could have tied in the technology with the hyperadapter in whatever was left in the cave when Bruce was lopping it off. I guess that would have been rather derivative but I love a sense of strict continuity and throw backs to other stories and most importantly I like mysteries to actually be solved by THE WORLD'S GREATEST Detective. Just like Knightfall other than Batman Inc. itself it seems like all the other Bat Writers are trying to sweep a very significant story in the way of "The Return Of Bruce Wayne" under the rug when they should be using it as a foundation akin to Year One if they want to use Gotham itself as a character in their stories.

It just seems like there was a wasted opportunity to explore the fall out of Barbato's and perhaps that legend also being why the Court of Owls was invented in the first place. If they could have used Annie's curse as a way for Nathaniel Wayne to pick up arms and create the court I feel it would have been just so compelling and I wish I could ask why Snyder didn't try to use that or even brush upon it since The Court of Owls was around not far after those events'.

I know we as critics of these writers all think we know how it could have done better but sometimes you are just left with a feeling that some answers are staring you right in the face but insecurity makes you balk from them IE Loeb making Hush actually be Jason and Winnick not revealing his entire plot for Under the Hood in As The Crow Flies as a dream and just making the damn kid be alive. That will just never set right with me even though I still feel it was the most exciting time in Batman comics since Knightfall and No Man's Land.

[S_Rhoades]

Loved the whole story. Capullo on this title is pure genius. I love the execution of every panel, they guy is amazing. I really enjoyed that there is still a bit of doubt in Bruce's mind. I also like the ending with Dick stirring $hit up, kinda wondering if he didn't do it to screw with Bruce for the punch. Either way it was another very well executed issue, and with Capullo drawing every damn thing he can is the icing on the cake. It's like they just sit around and dare Capullo to draw something different into each panle and make it all work.

[Concept Coop]

Well, to be fair, there is this whole "I'm your relative/best pal turned evil, so let's you and I fight until I mysteriously disapear in a way that may or may not have killed me, so you can end up having a little conclusive talk with Superman/Alfred to wrap things up" that makes a little more similar than just "not giving the anwsers".
I will point out though that I found it to be an okay ending, and I'm not complaining.

Valid points.

The "relative/pal turned evil plot twist" was used long before Hush or RIP, so I don't think we are being fair to question Snyder and not the other two.

Snyder clearly - to me at least - wasn't borrowing form Loeb or Morrison in creating March/TWJr/Owlman. He introduced a villain with long-term potential and wanted him to be a mirror of Batman. Hush can be completely ruled out, in my opinion. They aren't similar at all. As for Dr. Hurt - aside from claiming to be family, he too has next to nothing in common with March/TWJr/Owlman, who actually believes he is Bruce's brother.

[Kiryu]

I think the major problem I have enjoying this story is that it's 11 issues about a bunch of scrubs. The Court of Owls...they sucked as villains, they were and remain this grand faceless organization, but for me that makes them interesting. We're supposed to be intimidated by how they've remained hidden and operating in secret for so long, but the story doesn't earn that intimidation, it simply tells you that's what you're supposed to feel about them. The Court itself never develops into characters or a reasonable entity, they are just some amorphous blob of villainy and secrecy. The buncha weirdos in Twin Peaks style Owl Masks, they're nothing. They do nothing. They even die off panel. By another nobody, some new character whose only hook is that maybe, possibly, he could he Bruce's younger brother. The only impressive thing about the Court is they have a bunch of zombies, who just get gleefully dismembered by the Bat-family.

To me, that made the story un-enjoyable on a basic-plot level. Couple that with Synder's dialog, which I don't find natural sounding and is a bit too Geoff Johns style exposition-laden for me, alongside his tell-don't-show writing style and crutch for having pretty bad metaphoric stories from the past that are exactly like what's happening currently, it seems like he watched The Dark Knight too many times and had someone give a Michael Kaine-as-Alfred style "We buhned da fohest masta Wayne" story for basically every little event that happened.

For me, it's a story on the level of Hush. Pretty art but nothing to really hold it up. I'd like to see Synder do something smaller because imo his idea of epic isn't well, epic at all. Just overlong. So for this reader, I gotta mark the Court down as a C level story with A list art.

[Quinnhop]

I loved it. The scenes with Dick and Alfred made the issue.

[Concept Coop]

Did those that didn't enjoy the arc much, outside of the art, also enjoy the Bruce first-person narrative?

I can completely understand those who question the plot and dialog. But the narrative aspect of Snyder's writing was flawless, in my opinion.