B.P.R.D. Hell on Earth: Return of the Master

[TheBranMan788]

OK, I just read issue 4 and well. . . what can I say?, I was left with my mouth open gawking at the final page. I'm a big Black Flame fan and I was just shocked, glad to see him back and I'm going with Middenway's theory "The current Black Flame, I'm guessing, is the real deal"
I think this guy could cause a little too much trouble.

[Phantasos]

Well, Ho-ley shiet. This was seriously one of the most distressed, chaotic and tense chapters of the entire B.P.R.D series, in my opinion. The way the soldiers slowly realized that they were between the wall and the axe and that no matter how hard they hit the monsters they just kept on coming back, was brilliant. All of this coupled with everyone's expectations about Rasputin's return that were piercing the goddamn stratosphere which were then completely twisted with that amazing Black Flame end page.

Holy shit.

I guess Rasputin really is in hell. Waiting for another chat with Hellboy. In a way, it makes sense, regardless of how important B.P.R.D's story is, Rasputin is iconic enough to meddle in Hellboy's shenanigans again. At least I hope so.

[Middenway]

A preview for issue 5 has popped up. I haven't read it. No spoilers.

[meorsomeone]

It's one page and doesn't give away much, it's something we've seen in mystic visions and prophecy in the series for a long time, that being said: that one page preview is powerful because its actually finally happening. I really can't wait to read this, how many days have we got left till this is out?

[Kelly Tindall]

Got caught up last night.

I'm taking the book off my pull list.

I'm still enjoying the book, but the lightning in a bottle that made the earlier volumes so fantastic just isn't there for me anymore. The thing about Liz and Abe being out of commission (and the introduction of new, more human characters) may be good for new readers, but it's also an excellent point for longtime readers like me to step aside for awhile. I'm really looking forward to the trade paperback of BPRD: Vampire, but other than that (and Hellboy in Hell, which I'll get monthly) I'm going to take a break.

[cantide]

That preview is like a punch to the gut! We've seen it before but it's totally different in this context and aaahhh they really weren't kidding about this arc!

It's crazy how many good comics we're getting these days. Last week Hellboy in Hell, next week both BPRD and 1948! We're terribly spoiled...

[Kees_L]

Got caught up last night.

I'm taking the book off my pull list.

I'm still enjoying the book, but the lightning in a bottle that made the earlier volumes so fantastic just isn't there for me anymore. The thing about Liz and Abe being out of commission (and the introduction of new, more human characters) may be good for new readers, but it's also an excellent point for longtime readers like me to step aside for awhile. I'm really looking forward to the trade paperback of BPRD: Vampire, but other than that (and Hellboy in Hell, which I'll get monthly) I'm going to take a break.

Admittedly the 'new, more human characters' seem to baffle me as well. Since I can't get the appeal of 'human' or 'normal' onto the BPRD? Any agents besides Hellboy have been human to begin with, albeit with a twist on occasion, so I wouldn't see what good "more humanness" would do? Especially since the twists will be where the fun is, intrinsically for the BPRD as from the start?
Maybe guys like Prof. Brut or Kate wouldn't have weirdness bred into them but still their interest revolves totally around stuff that does. So. Everyone is not normal yet human for the most part. That's what the BPRD would be about. Like there is no 'normal'.

I'm really still in the midst of being to read all the stories beyond Liz and Abe as well as the narrative on Daimio or Kate or Johann or Panya. Partly since I need to gear myself up for them. Newer stories moreso than older ones it seems.

I could see it if much or even most of the initial characters would need to get sidestepped for a bit. But that would invoke either a shortage of agents or the need for new intricately equipped characters more rather? Although keeping Panya or Kate at the centre of attention wouldn't seem weird?

Same for the threats or enemies for me: I feel I would like to see different stuff from like military missions with Hem-creatures or secret monster armies or also the Black Flame in the way they'd already got featured. Why not just BPRD-style missions in a new light? Like based on old forgotten Bruttenholm-leads or having to do with newer agents or such. Turmoil or catastrophe looming wouldn't need to seem or feel only retrospective I'd think, or be about Hem-stuff exclusively, even if it would all be part of some shared thing?
I kind of thought further narrative on existing material would be to happen in standalones.

So to me it seems the ongoing current BPRD would always remain to need current or new both as seemingly future characters and plots to prove enticing, no matter how heavily any doom or apocalypticality would be to loom?
Although, like I said, I'm still fully in the midst of reading it all.

[Kelly Tindall]

Admittedly the 'new, more human characters' seem to baffle me as well. Since I can't get the appeal of 'human' or 'normal' onto the BPRD?

A mostly-human BPRD would be an easier sell if Dark Horse wanted to make a t.v. show, or a movie spinoff. Save the budget for the monsters, not the main cast.

[Kees_L]

A mostly-human BPRD would be an easier sell if Dark Horse wanted to make a t.v. show, or a movie spinoff. Save the budget for the monsters, not the main cast.

Ah. Well. I think I wouldn't consider such likely to happen 'though? Neither in case of Hellboy Animated or either the Hellboy movies did the comics be to make any compromise whatsoever for their content?
Whereas it seemed to me the movie features were the ones needing to come up with a format and setting fit for basing themselves on the comics but not through copying the comics straightforwardly, but instead as with offering a particular dynamic of their own? To my understanding the Del Toro movies were only allowed as forming something totally different from the comics. And the animated features seemed very particularly their own thing too.
I don't think the Hellverse would be all that infatuatedly intent on getting made into film or tv or only if such would dedicate itself to handling the material well enough, like as accompanying the comics instead of replacing them at all. Since comics would be the best medium for comics material, so movie or television redo's should let them be such.

This will be total conjecture and assumption on my own part, but I myself got the idea that on the most recent BPRD story-arcs the editors and co-writers were given more room to be adding content onto what they would have been aiding at or had been setting up for a number of years now? Side bits or stuff perhaps as with seeming a little more "human" in the sense of not being particularly as intricate as resurfaced Egyptian mummies or buff pyrokinetic ladies or fish-experiments?
Like as if the co-writers could do stuff but not with Liz or Abe or Johann for a bit anymore, until a point consistently later in time, like when Hellboy In Hell would have concluded with some stuff?
My assumption would be that the narratives are left or frozen at certain points for specific reasons: like maybe other stuff needs resolving first prior to loose ends being to get picked up again?

I dunno if any of this would be conjecture/assumption too much, but yeah.
All I wanted to convey was I would agree on 'human-ness' or 'normal-ness' to hopefully not become too common for current ongoing BPRD narrative. I'd personally like weird better.

[Middenway]

A mostly-human BPRD would be an easier sell if Dark Horse wanted to make a t.v. show, or a movie spinoff. Save the budget for the monsters, not the main cast.

If I ever thought the changes in the B.P.R.D. were made to smooth a transition to TV, I'd drop the series in a heartbeat. That's such an incredibly cynical thought. I think too highly of everyone involved to think so poorly of them.

Admittedly the 'new, more human characters' seem to baffle me as well. Since I can't get the appeal of 'human' or 'normal' onto the BPRD? Any agents besides Hellboy have been human to begin with, albeit with a twist on occasion, so I wouldn't see what good "more humanness" would do? Especially since the twists will be where the fun is, intrinsically for the BPRD as from the start?

Again, as someone that's really enjoying the expanded human cast, this is baffling to me. But then I hate superhero books. The only thing I hate more than superhero books is team superhero books. I was never attracted to Hellboy because he's a demon with super strength and super healing. I was attracted to Hellboy because he was a demon hunting his own kind, because he bears the weight of the end of the world, because despite his curious appearance, he was just a regular guy. I was attracted to Abe not because he was a fishman, but because he was an outsider with a mysterious past. I liked Liz because she was a damaged person. I liked Roger because of his child-like and melancholy view of the world.

In short I liked the characters because of what made them human, not what made them different.

But this is still Mike Mignola's universe. Character's don't just get more interesting when they die. They get more interesting the longer they hang around. Trevor Bruttenholm was a regular guy, but he was haunted by Varvara for at least a few years. Simon Anders was a regular guy, now he's got two vampires locked up inside of him trying to get out. Ashley Strode was a regular woman until she became an apprentice exorcist. Professor O'Donnell is infested with some sort of fly demon. The stories have a way of changing these characters into something unusual.

Kate is my favourite character. I love her intelligence and fearlessness. Devon's powerlessness (he's not even a soldier) makes his growth very compelling to me. The guy's not even thirty! He has so much growing up to do. I love that Giarocco is a mother and a wife. In eight pages she won me over in Seattle. That they are only human makes them no less interesting to me.

The characters of Mignola's universe have always been human, and exploring their frailties and triumphs is what I love most about the series. Introducing human characters that are just human is an interesting way to open up new ways to tell stories. Another perspective on the end of the world. I've always found the weirdness has only ever been a catalyst to exploring the humanity of the characters. But I think the world is big enough to have room for others too.

So, I don't disagree with you, but I have trouble relating to your point of view. I especially liked the way the regular human characters were dealt with in The Long Death. I got The Devil's Engine & The Long Death trade recently and I really enjoyed it. The scene with Gervesh and Nichols discussing mortality around the fire at the beginning of the third issue was a really interesting moment, and not really a point of view that could be explored with the supernatural cast.

[Kees_L]

So, I don't disagree with you, but I have trouble relating to your point of view. I especially liked the way the regular human characters were dealt with in The Long Death. I got The Devil's Engine & The Long Death trade recently and I really enjoyed it. The scene with Gervesh and Nichols discussing mortality around the fire at the beginning of the third issue was a really interesting moment, and not really a point of view that could be explored with the supernatural cast.

I agree to a lot of what you are saying, although we might be looking at some stuff quite particularly - which would be totally allright since reading would foremostly be personal or open to being to vary, wouldn't you agree?

For me a bureau to deal with the 'paranormal', a bureau consisting of members themselves being 'paranormal' or being experienced with 'paranormal', makes for a great vehicle or scenario to convey story matter as dealing with the 'paranormal'.
To me it seems that within the narrative nothing is offered or put forth as being binaries or utmost extremes: not humanity vs. alien/demon/monstrosity, not normal vs. weird.
Because any of the characters, Hellboy may be seen as either demonic or 'a regular guy', Liz may be seen as a lovely woman with a terrible hardly containable power,
Abe may be seen as either completely betrayed or corrupted by humanity itself or a empathic both as sympathetic ally, etcetera.
Or take the most human or purely 'good' character, being Roger, who in fact would be a sentient drone as made by evil itself! Nicest bloke around also.

So I'd feel the stories convey many perspectives all at once, how both humanity or any existence might prove for better or either worse. Without ever choosing one particular perspective over another.
It wouldn't be good guys vs bad guys or humans vs others. Since it wouldn't have to be so narrow.

Hellboy or Abe or anyone wouldn't have to choose or be to prove being human or good at any point. Because life itself wouldn't merely revolve around choosing sides.
But instead will different perspectives to take be lying in the eye of the beholder for as long as existence would hang in the balance - or in other words: for as long as any balance would be to exist.


Anyway, in my response I was telling Kelly I could see his feeling that the more recent stories would feel somewhat particular from less recent ones, since newer characters would seem more rather particularly human or less weird in a way. Not saying such would be all bad or anything like that, just that it would seem noticeable.

Plus I could see how a shortage of senior agents might get dealt with within the actual narrative. Plus how do the paperwork people at the Bureau feel, the managers or executives?
And another thing I wonder about is for any ending-of-the-world-thing: such couldn't ever be a totally communal or concensus thing I imagine. Any end of the world would always come as a surprise no matter the amount of omens or such? So I wouldn't think it weird if new agents would get hired or big plans were made regardless of any doom or apocalypses. I'd think.

[Kees_L]

But then I hate superhero books. The only thing I hate more than superhero books is team superhero books. I was never attracted to Hellboy because he's a demon with super strength and super healing. I was attracted to Hellboy because he was a demon hunting his own kind, because he bears the weight of the end of the world, because despite his curious appearance, he was just a regular guy. I was attracted to Abe not because he was a fishman, but because he was an outsider with a mysterious past. I liked Liz because she was a damaged person. I liked Roger because of his child-like and melancholy view of the world.

In short I liked the characters because of what made them human, not what made them different.

I think I understand what you mean. But I myself would never say I'd hate superhero stories because all they'd be would be stories, essentially.

Superhero stories are not a genre of their own or they needn't be as narrow as how any fans would be taking them to be.

Because most any superhero stories would essentially equate to any hero stories before/besides them. Marvel or DC merely made them their selling point, for having bought exclusive rights to what would be American superhero tales - tales which were made popular both as made in the first place, prior to and independently from any such publishers. Ditko or Kirby or Siegel & Shuster or Bob Kane or Eisner studios made those stories independently from any "big 2" corporations, corporations which followed as a result of those stories becoming popular.

But be it superhero stories or any heroic stories or any enticing stories, they'd all be about both humanity or reality as well as wonder or remarkableness.
They couldn't not be. Because even escapism or surreality is about reality still. Same for humanity. Although I might like alien stories if they ever existed...

Any tales on wonder or magicalness or super-ness will automatically be about normality or reality. They describe potential or paradoxality. Which makes that they don't need to focus only on things onesidedly or narrowly, I'd say.
And all of them could be made well or either not so much. They could be to appeal greatly or either not so much, depending as per reader individually.

But when publishers or corporations focus on equating themselves to what would be "the bestest or number-one-est stories", then such would be a problem. Particularly because most any major current publisher superhero stuff is made for being to mimic past success and past glory, without allowing for much innovation or variation. The selling-point of any 'authentic' yet current Spider-Man or Superman or such is: "look man, it's authentic!" Although the want of selling new stuff can be taking away from original or past successful superhero stuff to getting sold - in the sense of how any new or followup content could be to dilute itself if quantity would be its prime incentive.

As how creator-owned or independent titles would show: they need to offer quality or their own being particular on a constant. By being their own thing, as being initial both as in-the-now. So they might in fact be having much in common with anything creative with proving of quality, be it superhero stuff or not.

Which seems to be the case with how Dark Horse both as mr Mike is treating his creator-owned material: it's material as how he wants to be making it particularly. Revolving around creators and creative people more rather than publisher antics or sales statistics. I feel that is what is setting aside any of it as seeming profoundly great and worked out and lastingly enticing.
Like Hellboy or BPRD both as Amazing Screw would have things in common with all great storytelling, better than more generic or fast-buck titles could?

Although I should shut up now, since I'm one to talk too much I'll believe...

[cantide]

(everything Middenway said)

Agreed on all counts!

[Rastagir]

Every word

Nailed it.

[Kees_L]

Agreed on all counts!

Nailed it.

Ain't it just swell and dandy how we as Hellboarders (bearded or otherwise) can all be to (at least partially) agree on stuff?

You, me, Middenway, Kelly or anybody and vice-versa all at the same time more or less?


Eventhough relating to certain parts or points of view would not have to be always simple or most straightforward?

Some even manage to gracefully disagree!


The way we all allow eachother our particularest perspectives or takes will utterly be to warm my cold black heart.

Which says a lot, something I kind of tend to do more rather than not :smiley-smile:.