Cerebus - Edutain me

[Roquefort Raider]

But ultimately, it's clear that the failure of their relationship is Cerebus' fault, even though her silly whims resulted in dire consequences by the close.

I really wonder if that was voluntary on Sim's part (which I assumed was the case at the time) or if it was accidental (which I started to suspect when I read what he later stated about Jaka being a pampered and selfish brat). In Form & Void, the couple's problems are of a simple logistical nature, and we know that while Cerebus is quite aware of them, Jaka isn't. She's a city creature, not a frontierswoman. It's not fair to expect her to know how crucial it is to beat the arrival of winter in order to cross a mountain range if she's never been told. But Cerebus spends weeks agonizing over the matter and wallowing in his internal soliloquy instead of just talking to her. And when the sh*t hits the fan eventually, he unfairly takes it out on her.

[the goddamn batman]

Blacksad is a MUST read for any comic fan; fantastic comic!

The new volume is coming out late July and I can't wait for it!

it's coming out tomorrow.

[shaxper]

I really wonder if that was voluntary on Sim's part (which I assumed was the case at the time) or if it was accidental (which I started to suspect when I read what he later stated about Jaka being a pampered and selfish brat). In Form & Void, the couple's problems are of a simple logistical nature, and we know that while Cerebus is quite aware of them, Jaka isn't. She's a city creature, not a frontierswoman. It's not fair to expect her to know how crucial it is to beat the arrival of winter in order to cross a mountain range if she's never been told. But Cerebus spends weeks agonizing over the matter and wallowing in his internal soliloquy instead of just talking to her. And when the sh*t hits the fan eventually, he unfairly takes it out on her.

Excellent synopsis.

And yes, I too often wonder when Sim is using Cerebus as a teaching tool and when he's blurring Cerebus with aspects of himself (whether intentionally or otherwise). Truly, though, when dealing with a creator like Sim, I find it healthier to not give a f*ck what his intentions were and just enjoy the brilliance that occurred, whether intentionally or otherwise.

Still, I think if you asked Sim at the time (who the heck knows what he'd say now), he'd tell you that Jakka was a pretty special person as far as females go (the end of Guys and much of Going Home clearly illustrated this), and only weak men (whether Rick or Cerebus) ruin her by allowing her to have too much control.

[Johnny P. Sartre]

it's coming out tomorrow.

Well, late july for amazon pre-orderers

[FanboyStranger]

Well, late july for amazon pre-orderers

Yeah, Blacksad: A Silent Hell, Parker: The Score, and Creepy Presents Richard Corben are all going to be shipped by Amazon on the same day. Really big day for me.

[FanboyStranger]

Have you or others following this thread ever read Blacksad by Juan Díaz Canales and Juanjo Guarnido? Here we have whole maginficent albums worth of anthropomorphic characters. Its definitely not in the Carl Barks mode, and quite removed from Gerber's wonderful duck, but it is phenomenally good. The art is outstanding and the stories gripping, with a whole consistent and well-thought universe presented for our deep involvement. Dark Horse is currently publishing the English translations, from the original French.

Read it and love it. I'd also recommend Bryan Talbot's Grandville, which is very much in the same vein as far as the noir but with a steampunk setting. A John Blacksad/Inspector Le Brock throwdown might be too much for the world to handle.

(Also, to fit in with the thread, in Grandville Mon Amour, Talbot has Le Brock walking through a prison block when he encounters Arthur Porcterre (roughly, "Earth Pig") who rants, "Yes, I killed those bitches! Why don't you believe me? All women are succubi in mortal guise! They leech our superior aetheric fluids!")

[Gothos]

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. I think Sim's skill and innovation is often lost in the discussion of his work because of the misogyny. While the misogyny is certainly there and needs to be part of any discussion of Sim's work, it's not the whole story. For my part, I think the problem with the second half of Cerebus is that Sim goes so far up his own rear that the story becomes almost unreadable at points, something that is only exacerbated by the ranting appendices that are supposed to help our reading. By the time he gets back to the satire/parody elements with the Todd McFarlane character and "Rabbi", it was a case of too little, too late, and the self-indulgence of Cerebus' biblical readings in The Last Day is just painful.

But that First Half.... man, those were some important comics.

Though I hated the Biblical exegeses and thought the MacFarlane character was an indulgent misfire, I rather liked the concept of "Rabbi." Granted, it was a labored joke, and only made sense in the light of Sim's essay about wishing he had been born Jewish (I paraphrase). Though I disagree completely with Sim's conclusions on the nature of pop fiction ("Rabbi" being Sim's take on the Superman fantasy, there's a special weight in Sim's satire in that he does such a dead-on impression of the Weisinger SUPERMAN. One might assume (as I do) that this shows the intensity of his former fannish fondness for the Silver Age stories, even if he is using it for satiric purposes. Strangely, despite Sim's frequent pronouncements on the sacredness of the creator's original version, the Silver Age Superman, has almost nothing to do at heart with the fantasies one finds in the Siegel-Shuster Superman.

[Gothos]

That has to be the best and most concise summation of Sim's stated opinions on the subject I've ever seen. Well done, sir.

I do agree with Sim when it comes to the creator's need to resist the siren song of comfort and worldly distractions. I just don't see why he has to bring gender into it, since it applies to female creators just as well as to males. But he does stress that women are somehow a creative "void" trying to smother the male creative flame (!) and apparently when women create something it's because they're using whatever male trait of character they have. (It sounds pretty circular to me, but there we are).

I was struck by the dichotomy between Sim's statements and what we found in the comic itself. For all his talk about how flaky women are, or how bitchy Jaka really was, that's not what we could read on the page. All the way to the end, there are complex characters in there; some funny, some tragic, some scheming, some mature and caring, some vain, some self-effacing, and there is no clear separation between males and females and their assorted qualities.

I agree. Even during his later period, you see some subtleties to Jaka's character even when Sim is *trying* to make her unlikeable.

There's a scene-- hopefully I'm remembering this correctly-- in which Jaka and Cerebus' warrior-buddy Bear are alone in a saloon. They don't like each other and don't speak, but Bear shows his contempt for Jaka by blowing cigar-smoke in her face. I get the sense that CONSCIOUSLY Sim wanted readers to cheer Bear and laugh at Jaka as she flounces out of the room. On the contrary, I sympathized with Jaka and thought that Bear-- whom Sim sometimes portrays as some ideal of masculinity-- came off as a total asswipe.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I have a few issues of the Cerebus run. And a few are ones that had comical parodies of Archie Goodwin , Jim Shooter , Mick Jagger and Keith Richards involved.

[Roquefort Raider]

There's a scene-- hopefully I'm remembering this correctly-- in which Jaka and Cerebus' warrior-buddy Bear are alone in a saloon. They don't like each other and don't speak, but Bear shows his contempt for Jaka by blowing cigar-smoke in her face. I get the sense that CONSCIOUSLY Sim wanted readers to cheer Bear and laugh at Jaka as she flounces out of the room. On the contrary, I sympathized with Jaka and thought that Bear-- whom Sim sometimes portrays as some ideal of masculinity-- came off as a total asswipe.

Agreed! I think Sim wanted to show that a guy who falls in love just can't be helped; he loses his common sense and goes after the girl even though it's bound to end badly (as it had for Bear and his own lady, causing him to brush off Jaka's presence. Wise old Bear sees through the woman's guile, foolish Cerebus doesn't). But that's where Sim's opinion (and perhaps experience) clashes with mine and most everyone else's: a couple CAN live together happily ever after.

It's not about men and women being incompatible; its about selfish asses being hard to live with. And after all, even Cerebus and Bear's manly bromance ended badly!

[de Sosa]

I think I just don't get Cerebus.

I've been trying to get through High Society, apparently the pinnacle of the series along with Jaka's story, for awhile, its just not enjoyable for me to read.

It's not like I don't understand the references or politics.

It's just like, not that funny or exciting enough to make me want to read more. And also at times it seems extremely pretentious, for example there's one scene early on where Cerebus plays an imaginary card game for a week with two guys-a card game that Dave Sim made up, and then Dave Sim writes a page explaining the rules of the card game so that we could understand the comic and what was happening.

Or when Cerebus disappears into metaphysical dream land and spends page after page interacting with a voice in his head.

I mean it's extremely clever and a great way to help build the world, but its just not enjoyable for me to read that.

The ideas in Cerebus, the way it's written, the way the story is told and the sheer length are incredible. Dave Sim is definately a genius and one of the greatest cartoonists of all time, I dunno why though, it's just not interesting for me to read.

[sonicx1977]

I understand what you mean, de sosa. You are right with what you say, its brilliant but its not enjoyable for everyone. I like it sometimes, but the rules of the card game not so much, or later things in the last volumes.

[dr chimp]

Well the Card game rules was just one page - and only included because Sim said people were writing in asking to know how to play diamondback.

The trip through his subconcious was pretty boring because I had no real idea who all the people and sects were which him and Po were talking about although there were some lovely panel layouts. I think if i had been buying it in single issues then that issue would have made me stop and think before picking up the next one but after that little interlude (which was a good idea in theory) then the Debts issue was excellent. Only 1/4 of way through second trade but loving all the politics and finance plots and the hotel setting.

[Gothos]

Agreed! I think Sim wanted to show that a guy who falls in love just can't be helped; he loses his common sense and goes after the girl even though it's bound to end badly (as it had for Bear and his own lady, causing him to brush off Jaka's presence. Wise old Bear sees through the woman's guile, foolish Cerebus doesn't). But that's where Sim's opinion (and perhaps experience) clashes with mine and most everyone else's: a couple CAN live together happily ever after.

It's not about men and women being incompatible; its about selfish asses being hard to live with. And after all, even Cerebus and Bear's manly bromance ended badly!

No disagreements here, though I want to reiterate that "wise old Bear" still comes off like a dick for a reason Sim may not have appreciated; taking advantage of his gender and size to play the bully.

[drinkblatzbeer]

read the whole thing...enjoyed it until rick's story, which from then on it became kind of a chore...

still, for any comic fans looking for a challenge, i'd say to go ahead and read the saga...