Why do you read Independent comics?

[Venomous Mask]

I seriously hope Menton3 becomes prolific. Both his art and prose are amazing.

[Art Monkey]

My introduction to comics was ElfQuest, and that pretty much set the standards for what I expect from comics in terms of story content, character development, innovation and the like. While I do read and enjoy superhero comics on occasion, I rarely if ever found the quality I wanted in them. It is as someone pointed out earlier in this thread - while Marvel and DC might on avarage produce relatively good comics, the best of indie comics are way better than that. So when looking for good comics, I'm inclined to go looking for gems in indie comics, not superheroes.

(Not to say there are not a few titles that I read to follow the characters, not creators - but I count myself immensely lucky that the ones I do - Transformers and TMNT - also happen to be some of the best comics I've ever read right now. And speaking of creators - although James Roberts is probably a big unknown outside of the Transformers fandom, I will buy anything he writes, whatever it is. The guy's one of the best writers I've ever encountered.)

[gloryhound]

Look at his sig - don't try to enlighten someone like that, you'll only waste your time :)

Too true. I realized what I was dealing with the second he ignored all my valid points and continued with his drivel. I'm sure he's one of those "fans" who went up in arms when DC gave Wonder Woman pants. Because, you know, it makes soooo much sense for an Ambassador of another country to parade around in a bathing suit. I mean, we see it all the time, right? (*rolls eyes*)


On a lighter, and much more intelligent, note -- what books do you read and which ones stand out for you?

I'm reading MORNING GLORIES, PIGS, THE ACTIVITY, THIEF OF THIEVES, WHISPERS, PETER PANZERFAUST, THE MANHATTAN PROJECTS, SAGA and MIND THE GAP from Image. I also collect THE MASSIVE from Dark Horse but I did not get a chance to read it yet, and I'm planning on picking up MIND MGMT (also from Dark Horse) next week.

I do pick up some Vertigo books since they are creator-owned. THE UNWRITTEN and AMERICAN VAMPIRE are fantastic reads, and I'm looking forward to COLLIDER this Fall.

My favorite Image titles are MORNING GLORIES, THIEF OF THIEVES, MIND THE GAP and WHISPERS as those titles really stand out for me. I tend to be a big fan of mysteries as well as mind-bending type stories, as you can see that three out of the four favorites are exactly just that. THIEF OF THIEVES has some really awesome characterization and suspense moments that keep me coming back for more each month. I can't wait to see it on AMC when it comes out.

[SteveGus]

We all pretty much start out reading superhero books the same way we all pretty much start out watching "Sesame Street" when we're young. But yeah, it makes logical sense to "graduate" to other material when you get older and leave the other stuff for the next generation. Unfortunately, superhero fans refuse to grow up and move onto something else and you can see this by their typical juvenile behavior.
...
As long as "Bruce Wayne is Batman" that's all they care about. They'll complain about the changes because they don't want anything to change, but they continue to buy it because they absolutely NEED THEIR PRECIOUS CHARACTERS. It's akin to gambling, really. It's a glorified sickness.
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Again, it's the childish mentality. They only follow characters, not creators much like the child who follows his/her favorite characters. How many children know who produced their favorite shows or published their favorite books. Not many. Superhero fans, unfortunately, are still stuck in a child-like mentality and refuse to expand further. They would rather buy the thirty Avengers titles or thirty Batman titles than buy one or two of them and buy books of other genres that we know appeal to them. That is, I'm sure they watch TV and movies of other genres, right? But for whatever reason they won't extend that to comic books. Sad, really.

This is why some of us are suspicious and resentful of indie books, and the people who promote them as more serious or mature. Really, talking to other fans this way probably does more harm than good to the cause of the books you like. If you want to persuade people to read them, this may not be the best approach.

I do read indie books. For some reason I suspect Femforce is not held in high regard around here. but I've read it for years. It counts as indie, right? I think so, and so is Mara of the Celts, and even Stan Lee's Mighty 7 and Pantha, both of which I found amusing. I read books by independent publishers, but not "indie books".

FWIW, when the "penny dropped" for me I followed artists rather than writers. I have many more favorite artists than writers; with writers it's more of a list to avoid.

[Parch]

This is why some of us are suspicious and resentful of indie books, and the people who promote them as more serious or mature. Really, talking to other fans this way probably does more harm than good to the cause of the books you like. If you want to persuade people to read them, this may not be the best approach.

Completely dependent on the title. A large number of indie titles do have more nudity, language, graphic violence and mature themes, so yeah, it's not unreasonable to consider indie titles as more mature. Saga is absolutely brilliant and the best comic I've read in years, but it's not something I'd give to my kid. There's also plenty of superhero and licensed indie titles that are fine for kids so it depends on the title, but plenty of the popular indie titles are definately more mature than anything Marvel and DC are making.

[Overhazard]

Well, I just read books I like. Sometimes they're mainstream, sometimes they aren't. I tend to follow creators and characters. I don't see the point in reading a book if it makes you angry. Which is what some people do. For instance, I don't like the new Ultimate Spider-Man. I think more people read it because of what miles can become, rather than what he is. I read the first trade, and Miles didn't feel very fleshed out. To be honest, I don't really think Bendis knows what he's doing, and eventually more people will see it probably around issue 50.

There will always be more coverage of the mainstream stuff than indie stuff, and the good mainstream stuff will always be overshadowed by the bad mainstream stuff. The best titles DC has out right know are The Flash, Aquaman, and Animal Man, but a lot more people are interested in talking about how A v X is a mindless superhero slugfest (and it is) or the Catwoman 0 cover.

I actually read more Archie titles than I thought I ever would have. Sonic, Mega Man, New Crusaders, and Sonic Universe are all really enjoyable books. Ian Flynn understands that "all ages" doesnt mean watered down kiddy fluff, but stories that anyone, from ages 8-80 can enjoy.

I also love empowered and atomic robo, they're both fun books, but they also have drama and action as well. I'm interested in the hypernaturals and the ninja turtles too.

[SteveGus]

Completely dependent on the title. A large number of indie titles do have more nudity, language, graphic violence and mature themes, so yeah, it's not unreasonable to consider indie titles as more mature. Saga is absolutely brilliant and the best comic I've read in years, but it's not something I'd give to my kid. There's also plenty of superhero and licensed indie titles that are fine for kids so it depends on the title, but plenty of the popular indie titles are definately more mature than anything Marvel and DC are making.

I suppose the main reason I don't like this way of thinking is that it tends to dilute or stretch the word "mature".

There is something extremely wrong with a culture where the words "adult" and "family" have adjective meanings that are antonyms. Nudity, strong language, and graphic violence may make earn a book a "mature readers" label but they are neither necessary nor sufficient to make the contents of that book "mature".

Some readers seem to view "mature" as meaning something close to 'serious in tone and intent; grittily realistic, dark in mood'. If this is what they mean, "maturity" is something I absolutely do not want in my escapist entertainment, and I do tend to get annoyed at people who make out these aesthetic flaws to be virtues. Because calling something "mature" means that you've elevated it above the "immature". And it isn't true to my experience either; the equation of Dark with Deep is IMO an adolescent taste.

[gloryhound]

This is why some of us are suspicious and resentful of indie books, and the people who promote them as more serious or mature. Really, talking to other fans this way probably does more harm than good to the cause of the books you like. If you want to persuade people to read them, this may not be the best approach.

Believe me when I say it was not my intent to "persuade" anyone into buying the books I like. First, my post was a response to a poster who asks why don't readers of superhero books move on to other books when they grow up. My response is based on what I have seen online and at my local comic book shops. And that is -- which brings me to my next point -- you cannot persuade superhero fans into expanding their reading no matter how nice, articulate and intelligent you can be. They buy the "capes and tights" and that's all they buy. Many even come out to say that if Marvel and DC were to cut down on their titles, or even stop altogether (hypothetical stuff) that it would not make them go elsewhere. They would just give up the hobby.

If you're questioning the maturity of independent book readers, just see how they interact with each other especially when they disagree on something. More often than not it's a simple "well, this is how I see it" type of interpretation and they move on. They don't like a change, they don't like a change. Did you see the reaction to Wonder Woman's new costume that featured her in pants? I'm sorry to say, but superhero fans act like overgrown children and pretty much have earned the negative stigma placed upon them.

I do read indie books. For some reason I suspect Femforce is not held in high regard around here. but I've read it for years. It counts as indie, right? I think so, and so is Mara of the Celts, and even Stan Lee's Mighty 7 and Pantha, both of which I found amusing. I read books by independent publishers, but not "indie books".

My beef, if you will, with superhero books is the fact that nothing ever changes. Dead people are brought back, stories are retconned or rebooted, titles are relaunched, there are tons of titles for one character, too many crossovers between the many titles, and a ton of titles for the latest event. Even if they stopped doing all that stuff, the problem of "rehash" still exists because you can only be original up to a point before things get repeated (eg. Superman fighting Lex Luthor... again!). I don't fault anyone for rehashed stories since it's the nature of open-ended serialized fiction. But that means it's time to move on to other stuff.

FWIW, when the "penny dropped" for me I followed artists rather than writers. I have many more favorite artists than writers; with writers it's more of a list to avoid.

That's the beauty of comic books: writers or artists, you can't go wrong either way.

[SteveGus]

I'm sorry to say, but superhero fans act like overgrown children and pretty much have earned the negative stigma placed upon them.

I guess I am one of those superhero fans in at least one respect. I am not at all happy with the fact that Wonder Woman is being written by a writer of celebrity snuff scenes who fridged her whole supporting cast, and I will not go away or be quiet about it either. (The pants didn't faze me at all.) On the other hand, indie and Vertigo fans have a negative stigma placed upon them as well, and this kind of attitude has something to do with it.

My beef, if you will, with superhero books is the fact that nothing ever changes. Dead people are brought back, stories are retconned or rebooted, titles are relaunched, there are tons of titles for one character, too many crossovers between the many titles, and a ton of titles for the latest event. Even if they stopped doing all that stuff, the problem of "rehash" still exists because you can only be original up to a point before things get repeated (eg. Superman fighting Lex Luthor... again!). I don't fault anyone for rehashed stories since it's the nature of open-ended serialized fiction. But that means it's time to move on to other stuff.

Tastes differ. I view superheroes as a classical art form.

My problem is that I am seldom pleased when 'indie' art styles and plot styles intrude on superhero comics. A lot of indie (and even more Vertigo) writing is something that seems .... not exactly 'grim' or 'dark', but bleak. I do consider Watchmen a pernicious influence. Talking up this stuff as if it were something more intelligent or sophisticated than Golden Age Captain Marvel tends to give rise to an unfortunate tendency to try to make the hero books more like indie books. In practice, this seems to mean the importation of bleakness: you have a hero's entire people turned into cold-blooded killers (Wonder Woman), you have protagonists talking about heart disease and cancer (Dial H for Hero), and all of this is in the DC superhero universe. This is the sort of thing I don't like. And it's why people talking about the superior 'maturity' of indie titles tends to set my teeth at edge.

I don't think it's a good idea to tell contemporary writers that they're any cleverer or more sophisticated than the people who thought up the brightly colored heroes and the stories of their triumph of good over evil. It isn't true. And it seems that the classics knew things about pacing and storytelling that have become lost arts.

[Zagra]

Remember, they are not the big two companies and I can understand that for an indy publisher for have a $3.99 to help over cost.

Now, back to the question, I read indy books, like a few have stated, is because 80 to 99% of the time, the creators of the series and do storytelling the way they want too and don't have to worry about an editor changing things around.

That's always been an issue for me, hope anyone can shed some light on it. I read mostly Image and the occasional Dark Horse and Boom (also, Archaia for Mouse Guard only) and Image is a place where the authors have complete control, they choose the paper stock quality, if the covers are glossy and stuff like that, and also price, even though some use high quality paper, most of the books are 2.99, while over at Dark Horse and Boom, some of their don't have quality paper and they're either 3.50 or 3.99, and they do print larger quantities than some of the Image books, so cost per unit would be even lower... That's why it bothers me buying books for 3.99 at Boom when Image puts them out at 2.99 (with exceptions, I know), since both are indy publishers.

More on topic, I used to read only DC and Marvel as a kid (no surprise there) but stop buying comics until around Civil War (the hype got me and I bought it and liked it). I jumped back into the Big Two but after Endangered Species at Marvel (biggest disappointment in comics in all my life) and Brightest Day (real close to the biggest one) a friend of mine talked to me about Spawn and lent me his collection. I loved it and began looking for more of the company (thinking it was a shared universe or such like DC/Marvel) and was thrilled to learn of its diversity. After some years I jumped to DH, Dynamite, BOOM, Avatar and others, and have really liked it a lot. I've been reading from the big two again. I read Batman because I love Capullo (I hand't the slightest clue who Snyder was) and like the book as a whole, not just art. And since I read Schism last year (I live in Mexico, and the company that publishes the Big Two here is always 10 months delayed with the story in the US) and then launched Uncanny Xmen and Wolvie andTXM as a double feature comic and I've loved it. Other than that, no more Big Two for me. I guess I read indies the most because I know if they ever put out macro uber events that are gonna be the greatest threat to that universe, it's gonna really count and move the plot forward, not just be waved off when a new writer hops on the train.

[Mr. Holmes]

Too true. I realized what I was dealing with the second he ignored all my valid points and continued with his drivel. I'm sure he's one of those "fans" who went up in arms when DC gave Wonder Woman pants. Because, you know, it makes soooo much sense for an Ambassador of another country to parade around in a bathing suit. I mean, we see it all the time, right? (*rolls eyes*)

I didn't ignore your "valid point" I wanted to you clarify and explain it, which you failed to do.

And let me know when you have anything besides ad hominem in your arsenal.

[Parch]

The superhero genre does a lot of rehash. A lot. It's the same thing from 20 years ago which was the same thing from 40 years ago. Now the latest hook is this universe where most ongoings take on a lot of soap opera melodrama. Kinda like their version of the sparkly vampire drama. It's a safe and simplistic hook to keep the fans coming back for more. You get a decent story arc once in awhile, but ongoings also have a lot of bad stories, stretched stories, and crappy fill-in issues. But heaven forbid you miss an issue that might have some tidbit of character melodrama.

There is just so much more variety, imagination, innovation, and creativity in the books from Image and Dark Horse. I do agree that Vertigo does tend to be a little more bleak, but that's what I expect from a crime or supernatural genre. That's not all indie books. Dynamite and Boom have a lot of fun books. IDW has some great horror. There is tons of variety depending on taste. Exploring indie can be fun and surprising as well as being thought provoking.

Superhero just got stale for me. Enough with the rehash. To hell with the gimmicks like events and reboots. You can keep your melodramatic soap operas. I like something a little more creative and imaginative. I like variety. I like sci-fi and horror and something completely new that I never expected. I haven't completely given up on Marvel and DC. They do have some good stuff and characters I like. I just can't be one of the sheep and continue to be disappointed with all the predictable trash anymore.

[Arvandor]

Indie comics are pretty much the reason I love comics at all.

It was Batman and X-Men that made me into a comics reader, but it was indie comics that made me into a comics fan.


That said, there are very few indie comics that excite me like they used to, and I'm starting to drift away. Indie comics don't have that collective attitude of defiance and rebellion against the Big Two that they used to have. Indies used to be the place where creators could do whatever the hell they wanted, and screw what anyone else in the industry thought. But now indie publishers and creators all play by the same polite rules, while the Big Two no longer have any rules to break. It's depressing.

[JonQCitizen]

Believe it or not, the "New 52" rekindled my love for the "Local Comic Book Shop" (instead of all Graphic Novels from Amazon), so I originally was collecting 10 of 12 titles from DC......nearly a year later I only collect 3 titles of 13 from DC. It's not that DC is bad (or Marvel either), it's that the Independents just offer better storytelling and more originality in my opinion.

I love Sci-Fi & Monsters, DC & Marvel just can't compete with The Elephantmen, Godzilla, Higher Earth, The Walking Dead, The Manhattan Projects, or Saga.....nor can either of the "top 2" offer anything close to the masterpiece that is Usagi Yojimbo. I used to be an All-DC man, but I can't see spending my money on titles that are "so-so" just for some mega-event a year from now. When I compare the titles I dropped (Green Arrow, Hawkman, Deathstroke, Aquaman, etc.) to the ones I'm now picking up every month....there's just no comparison.

[dupont2005]

And it seems that the classics knew things about pacing and storytelling that have become lost arts.

Really? Ten pages worth of a Golden Age super hero comic and I feel like I smoked some bad PCP