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  1. #46
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewarning View Post
    Swamp Thing/Man Thing
    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldoAAD View Post
    well technically they didnt copy each other but another property called the Heap
    Yeah, here's the way I've heard the story.

    Gerry Conway wrote the first appearance of Man-Thing, complete with origin story. ("Savage Tales #1," cover-dated May 1971.)

    Len Wein wrote the first appearance of Swamp Thing, complete with origin story. ("House of Secrets #92, cover-dated July 1971.)

    When you boil the plots down to the bare essentials, you find the origin stories had some points in common. ("Sincere young scientist is being persecuted by bad guys, and accidentally ends up being transformed into a terrifying muck-monster which is called some sort of 'Thing'. . . all of which is only slightly better (if at all) than it would have been for him to die a quick, clean death . . .")

    Both guys had, I gather, handed in their respective scripts long before either comic book emerged from the pipeline to be printed and distributed to the public.

    Conway and Wein were, literally, roommates at the time they wrote those stories.

    But as I've heard it: Each man swears he didn't discuss the details of the relevant script with his buddy before those comic books were published (one at Marvel and one at DC). And neither man has ever accused the other of spying on him, reading his notes, and then plagiarizing him by hastily dashing off a similar script for a rival company! They both seem to think it's a funny quirk of fate, rather than anything that requires a conspiracy theory to explain!

    If both of them are convinced that it was all a coincidence and that nobody was victimized, who are we to say we know better? We weren't hanging out in their apartment at the time, were we? They ought to know more about what was going on, and about each other's moral fiber, than we do!

    As ArnoldoAAD suggested, it's quite likely that they were both inspired by the same old comic book character -- "The Heap" -- who had a long run in the Golden Age and continued to be used, off and on with variations, in later stories from more than one company.
    Last edited by Lorendiac; 07-06-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #47
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Namor showed up a looooooong time before Aquaman ever saw the light of day.
    And The Sub-Mariner was originally conceived to be a Republic Serial, with Timely doing a comic version to coincide. The serial fell through, but Timely went ahead and did the book, anyway, since back then, they would pretty much publish anything.

  3. #48
    Laying on She-Hulk Silver_Leopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Well, for starters, Marvel pretty much took DC's superheros and re-interpreted them. Stan Lee, for example, made note The Fantastic Four was Marvel's answer to The Justice League of America.
    Nah, FF was more like a little bit of Doom Patrol and a little bit of Justice League.

    The Avengers were more like Justice League.

    Black Panther was a combo of Batman and Catwoman motif.

    The Man-Thing and Swamp Thing are controversial to comic readers.

    Thundra in Marvel was Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman in 1968 because they wanted a big Amazon (Thundra was 7 feet and had a chain like how WW had the lasso). But then Ms. Marvel was more like Supergirl until DC striked back with Power Girl in 1976.

    X-Men came out in September 1963, but Doom Patrol came out in June 1963. So Marvel saw how popular Doom Patrol was from the June and July 1963's issue of My Greatest Adventure that they came up with the X-Men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_Patrol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men

    Black Cat being Spider-Man's friend and nemesis was more like how Batman and Catwoman interact. Catwoman debut from the pages of Batman in 1940. Then 40 years later, Black Cat debuts in 1980 from the pages of the Amazing Spider-Man. Let's not forget that Tigra/The Cat was a homeage of The Cheetah (before Catwoman got the full catsuit to match the mask). Tigra because a were-cat in 1976 or 1979 to be exact. Then Cheetah becomes a were-cheetah in 1987 with George Perez's idea to reboot Cheetah. But the were-cat was already done by Marvel.

    With Superman being a popular DC character, in 2000 we are introduce to Sentry (Robert Reynolds) who was written bad in the end to kill him off because they were afraid that the Siegel family would of attacked Marvel for using their homage of Superman.

    I'd say both companies do have their fun attacking each other. But DC is more laid back about it while Marvel seems to be more aggressive with the approach.
    Have you ever thought that maybe your generation (not you per say but many of those in your age group) are not special but just a bunch of spoiled brats.

    Thanks Lexrules.

  4. #49
    Your Hero's Favorite Hero Jay Dogg's Avatar
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    Although Hawkeye was created after Green Arrow...you can sort of say that Green Arrow took after Hawkeye in a way. Prior to 1969 when Denny O'Neil took over the Justice League, Green Arrow was never one to speak up and challenge authority. I'd say that in recent times, at least during this decade Green Arrow remained consistent with it.

  5. #50
    Laying on She-Hulk Silver_Leopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Namor showed up a looooooong time before Aquaman ever saw the light of day.
    Sorry again for the double post, but Aquaman came out in 1941. Namor came out in the mid to late 1930's (1937 and 1938 to be precise). So, Namor and Aquaman were not far apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dogg View Post
    Although Hawkeye was created after Green Arrow...you can sort of say that Green Arrow took after Hawkeye in a way. Prior to 1969 when Denny O'Neil took over the Justice League, Green Arrow was never one to speak up and challenge authority. I'd say that in recent times, at least during this decade Green Arrow remained consistent with it.
    The reason why was because Hawkeye was a villain. Green Arrow was not. And DC saw that Marvel had a good idea for Hawkeye and ran with it. Then most of GA's solo stories were critically acclaimed hits with the cult followings.

    Hulk came out before Doomsday. BUT, remember Solomon Grundy? He was the original Hulk before it came cool. Plus the best thing about Grundy was that he was a super strong zombie.
    Last edited by Silver_Leopard; 07-06-2012 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Adding quote
    Have you ever thought that maybe your generation (not you per say but many of those in your age group) are not special but just a bunch of spoiled brats.

    Thanks Lexrules.

  6. #51
    Say WHAT?!?!?!? FanboyStranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    [*]Swamp Thing was created after Man Thing[/LIST]
    Not exactly true. Len Wein and Gerry Conway were sharing an apartment when they had the bright idea to pitch their very similar characters across town. Swamp Thing just appeared first, and as has already been pointed out, both characters are takes on The Heap.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Leopard View Post
    Nah, FF was more like a little bit of Doom Patrol and a little bit of Justice League.
    Perhaps, but Lee said the team was created so Marvel had a team book, since Justice League of America was selling well.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  8. #53
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Perhaps, but Lee said the team was created so Marvel had a team book, since Justice League of America was selling well.
    yeah, Lee has said that in the past, that Goodman told him to create a Justice League type book.
    But, what they came up with was more Challengers of the Unknown, so I am not sure how that makes sense.

  9. #54
    Senior Member Dizzy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Leopard View Post
    Nah, FF was more like a little bit of Doom Patrol and a little bit of Justice League.
    The Doom Patrol didn't exist back then, you probably mean the Challengers of the Unknown.

    X-Men came out in September 1963, but Doom Patrol came out in June 1963. So Marvel saw how popular Doom Patrol was from the June and July 1963's issue of My Greatest Adventure that they came up with the X-Men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_Patrol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men
    Really? Lee and Kirby created a team, wrote a comic, got it to the printer and distributed it within 1 month in 1963?

    With Superman being a popular DC character, in 2000 we are introduce to Sentry (Robert Reynolds) who was written bad in the end to kill him off because they were afraid that the Siegel family would of attacked Marvel for using their homage of Superman.
    You'd think Marvel would be more afraid of WB/DC's lawyers than Siegel's. Anyway, this also sounds really unbelievable to me (the part where they kill of Sentry because they are afraid of the Siegel family, the other part I believe). I mean Kirkman doesn't seem to worried about Omni-Man, nor any of the dozens of other Superman homages, parodies or rip-offs running around.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Okay -- where exactly did I say it was a "rip-off"? The thread is asking when Marvel and DC have copied one another; by Lee's own admission, he created to the FF to have his own team to compete with the JLA.
    What exactly makes Fantastic Four a copy of Justice League in your eyes then? They are as different as two superhero teambooks of that era can be.
    It was a response but not a copy.
    If you had said that Avengers was a copy of Justice League, I would have agreed with you.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Squadron Supreme predates Kingdom Come
    Just now, I searched through this thread for any reference to "Squadron Supreme."

    Your terse comment was all I found.

    That being the case, I just want to remind everyone that the original Squadron Sinister (a four-person team of villains), followed by the later first encounter of the Avengers with the Squadron Supreme (virtuous parallel-world-counterparts of the Sinisters), both qualified as Deliberate and Blatant Knock-Offs of the Justice League of America. The Sinisters being a way to have the Avengers fight "evil versions of the JLA," and the Supremes being a way to have the Avengers team up with the functional equivalent of the JLA! (In the starting line-up, Hyperion equaled Superman, Doctor Spectrum equaled Green Lantern, Nighthawk equaled Batman, The Whizzer equaled Flash.)

    In fact, for years afterwards, it was a running gag that every time a few more members of the Squadron Supreme debuted in another story, they would "just happen" to be close counterparts of the schticks of other members of the JLA who hadn't previously been copied. (Power Princess for Wonder Woman, Golden Archer for Green Arrow, Nuke for Firestorm, Arcanna for Zatanna, and so forth.) There was no attempt to hide what they were doing at the time -- any diehard comic book fan was going to spot the similarities in origin stories, etc., pretty darn quick!

    P.S. For anyone who's interested -- it's been a while since I last updated an old list:
    Character Aliases that Marvel and DC Have Both Used (5th Draft)

    In that draft, I was up to 1139 aliases which have been used on both sides of the fence.

    Many of those "duplications" are probably sheer coincidence.

    Still, it makes one blink to see that Professor X, Magneto, Cat Woman/Catwoman, Iron Fist, Power Man/Power-Man, Sabretooth, Spider Girl/Spider-Girl, Spiderman/Spider Man/Spider-Man, Dr. Doome/Dr. Doom, Dr. Voodoo, Dr. Destiny, Kingpin, Tarantula, Wonder Man/Wonder-Man, Lightning Lord, Scarecrow, Jester, Huntress, Mockingbird, Oracle, Impulse, etc., are all on the list of names that both sides have used at one time or another!
    Last edited by Lorendiac; 07-06-2012 at 10:29 AM.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel01 View Post
    What exactly makes Fantastic Four a copy of Justice League in your eyes then? They are as different as two superhero teambooks of that era can be.
    It was a response but not a copy.
    If you had said that Avengers was a copy of Justice League, I would have agreed with you.
    The fact that Lee was told by his boss to create a team book for Marvel like Justice League of America, and he and Kirby came out with FF.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  13. #58
    Your Hero's Favorite Hero Jay Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Leopard View Post
    The reason why was because Hawkeye was a villain. Green Arrow was not. And DC saw that Marvel had a good idea for Hawkeye and ran with it. Then most of GA's solo stories were critically acclaimed hits with the cult followings.
    I wouldn't necesarily say that him being a "villain" was the cause of his challenging authority. He could have always been like that, sort of like Wolverine. He's very heroic and noble, but always had that edgy attitude to him.

  14. #59
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    The fact that Lee was told by his boss to create a team book for Marvel like Justice League of America, and he and Kirby came out with FF.
    As I recall from the Origins of Marvel Comics, the story actually went something like:

    Boss: "Look at this comic from the guys down the street about a team of super heroes. It's selling really well. Why don't we have have a book about a team of super heroes?"

    Stan: So I created Fantastic Four.

    Boss: Skeptical look.

    Other than a title with more than one super powered individual in it (hardly original. You can go back to Human Torch and Toro in Marvel), it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that Fantastic Four was a copy of JLA. I agree with the other poster that it was a response to a team-based book, but nothing that I can find suggests that it was a copy.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Leopard View Post
    Oh and yeah I meant Challengers of the Unknown. Which I wish DC would make a New 52 of them.
    Uhh.. is this some kind of troll bait? or do you seriously not know they already did?

    and since you read the Doom Patrol wiki, you already know Drake's claim that since artists did work for BOTH companies, its entirely possible Marvel (Stan Lee) knew what his new book idea was and took 'inspiration' from it.. just another item that kinda supports ya
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