Wonder Woman by Brian Azzarello / What is Your Verdict?

[Mr. Holmes]

I'm sorry but this particular point fails terribly. Yes, WW and Pinocchio's birth share some elements, but the creators had different intents. Or do you think that the stories of Jesus, Darth Vader and all heroes born from virgin births in religions, myths and fictions have the same themes because they share the same origins?

I like how you say a point fails terribly and then introduce an even weaker point to explain how they're different.

[Sacred Knight]

Wonder Woman's origin was one of the most definitively feminist origins of any superhero, except possibly Buffy Summers. Diana was created by feminine forces--two goddesses (several others later under Perez & Potters' pen) and a loving mother. No father, no real need for one. Azzarello's maneuver with Zeus sabotaged that merely because the writer couldn't envision readers being able to relate to a single-parent character. Now, does that really seem "no less feminist" to you?

Its kinda ironic that Buffy Summers' origin is mentioned here as being expliclitly feminist second only to WW's. Because Buffy has a father. Hell she has TWO fathers, if you count Giles. So the question is begged, why is the origin of Buffy Summers qualified as a largely feminist origin even though she's born of a woman and a man and has a strong male role model as a supporting cast member, yet with Wonder Woman its sabotage designed to attract the "heterosexual male"? Makes no sense.

Buffy, if anything, shows how a male presence, even a strong male presence, can be included in a largely feminist origin without it being turned into a testosterone love fest nor lessen the feminist tones of that character. Hence my belief that no, this origin is inherently no less feminist. Something was added, not taken away.

[carabas]

Its kinda ironic that Buffy Summers' origin is mentioned here as being expliclitly feminist second only to WW's. Because Buffy has a father. Hell she has TWO fathers, if you count Giles. So the question is begged, why is the origin of Buffy Summers qualified as a largely feminist origin even though she's born of a woman and a man and has a strong male role model as a supporting cast member, yet with Wonder Woman its sabotage designed to attract the "heterosexual male"? Makes no sense.

Buffy, if anything, shows how a male presence, even a strong male presence, can be included in a largely feminist origin without it being turned into a testosterone love fest nor lessen the feminist tones of that character. Hence my belief that no, this origin is inherently no less feminist. Something was added, not taken away.

What the hell does not having a biological father have to do with feminism anyway?

[Predator jp]

What the hell does not having a biological father have to do with feminism anyway?

i was wondering the same thing.

[Don-Jack]

Because "She is the perfect Amazon (woman), no male seed has created her."
Remember, feminists don't have fathers. (They do, but prefer to think no men were needed to conceive them, because women don't need men)

[WhitOro]

Edit: You know what, forget what I asked, I don't want to argue about this again.

[Don-Jack]

Maybe there are characters (not from comic books) created only by man, but nobody says they're "perfect men" because of that.
Now, I was thinking, these Amazons, the way they have been painted so far, might not represent women ideally (they don't have to, anyway), but they certainly are feminists. They need men? Only to procreate (men need women to procreate too, you know). They are still a society made only by women which works as a society (they have inner problems, as any other society)
And they are strong. Any man would fear them in normal circumstances. Yep, they're the perfect representation of annoying feminists.

[psyshot]

I like how you say a point fails terribly and then introduce an even weaker point to explain how they're different.

He took 2 origins out of context to say they have the same value (none). But what makes WW's birth a feminist one is that Marston made it the culmination of the history of the amazons. Without the amazons and Hippolyta'story, the birth of WW has no meaning.

If I apply the same kind of Reasoning than whitoro, then Jesus and darth Vader's birth have the same value ,since context and intents have no meaning.

[psyshot]

My god! Buffy and wonder woman are two different characters with different origins and different supporting casts and still can be symbol for feminists? How is that possible?

[chastmastr]

They are still a society made only by women which works as a society (they have inner problems, as any other society)

I am not sure I'd say that this ghastly mess--see the infamous WW #7--"works as a society" any more than Apokalips does. The current version of Paradise Island deserves a raze-to-the-ground, salt-the-earth treatment.

But I also don't know what else to add to the things I and others have said on the subject...

[Don-Jack]

You certainly don't know what a society is.

[chastmastr]

You certainly don't know what a society is.

That's an odd thing to say. Totally wrong and rather rude, but, in addition, odd.

[Outside_85]

I am not sure I'd say that this ghastly mess--see the infamous WW #7--"works as a society" any more than Apokalips does. The current version of Paradise Island deserves a raze-to-the-ground, salt-the-earth treatment.

But I also don't know what else to add to the things I and others have said on the subject...

Apokalips is a society, not a very pleasant one, but it has leaders, laws, a pecking order and people there have jobs they better do and so on. It's not a nice place, but it is still a society.
Likewise, the Amazons are a society as well, only a much nicer place to live.

What isn't a society is what anarchists want, with no laws, no rulers, no pecking order...(save the one that will always be; bigger eats smaller).

[chastmastr]

Likewise, the Amazons are a society as well, only a much nicer place to live.

They're not much nicer if you're one of their victims.

By the way, I didn't say that they (or Apokalips) were not societies--I simply dispute whether they "work" as societies. Societies that are as twisted and evil as both of them are are basically broken, morally if nothing else.

[Karl O'Neill]

Only read the first few issues of Azz's Wonder Woman and I reall like what he is doing with the book.