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  1. #8806

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyGreenJerusalem View Post
    Indonesia is playing that as it's running theme "We told the Rudd Government we would not allow boats to be turned back, and our position remains the same". Apparently after Abbott's visit, they did allow a boat to be towed back, quietly, that was still in international or I dimension waters, but obviously didn't see that as a permanent situation, or at least not once the spying allegations came out.
    A lot of Academic and ex-diplomat option pieces suggest Indonesia isn't that annoyed, they just know they've got a rookie government at Foreign Policy, and are pushing hard while they can to get a good edge in all future negotiations. There's also an election next year in Indonesia, with their most Australia Friendly leader ever stepping down, and nationalist pollies making the most noise, so kicking back hard against Aussie slights isn't going to hurt your vote none.

    Australia has accepted the boat by the way, backing down from the standoff. So Abbott's three plans to stop boats, taken to the election - to buy boats off Indonesians to stop them from getting to Smugglers, to pay bounties for Smugglers or information on them, and to turn around boats - have all been stomped on by the Indonesians as imposing on their sovereignty. Just like they said they would before the election.
    He's just lucky Kevin Rudd's 'PNG Solution' was so horrible it actually turned people off - PNG is a truly shitty place - boats have been down to a trickle because of that one. Of course, Abbott's threat of a tow back could have been behind slowing it as well, but it turns out now that won't actually happen...
    I haven't read any of those articles but I'd say they're probably mistaken.

    Indonesian culture emphasizes harmony and consensus.

    Indonesia doesn't go public with a dispute unless they're absolutely furious.
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  2. #8807
    for the lulz 7thangel's Avatar
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    the emperor is desperate to keep stop and frisk untouched

    Bloomberg Files Aggressive New Action To Preserve Stop-And-Frisk
    Facing oversight of the aggressive stop-and-frisk program that saw more police stops of young black men than there are young black men in New York City, Mayor Michael Bloomberg (I) made a last-ditch attempt over the weekend to invalidate the ruling that found his police department engaged in unconstitutional racial profiling.

    Mayor-elect Bill de Blasio (D) committed during his campaign to drop the appeal to the stop-and-frisk ruling, so Bloomberg only has until January to undermine the ruling against one of his administration’s signature programs. Last month, an appeals panel took the extraordinary step of removing the trial judge, Shira Scheindlin, from the case, finding that Scheindlin violated ethics rules. Seizing upon that finding, the city filed a new motion Saturday arguing that Scheindlin’s 200-page ruling based on months of testimony should be immediately vacated in its entirety — even before the court reviews briefs and oral arguments in 2014.

    “The very nature of the judicial misconduct found by this Court … has necessarily created a situation where the District Court’s impartiality throughout the litigation might reasonably be questioned, at a minimum,” the motion argues.

    The appeals panel’s ruling that Scheindlin violated ethics rules drew immediate alarm from prominent ethics experts and even a Republican-appointed former chief federal judge, who questioned the court’s reasoning, but said at the very least the court should have held hearings and heard arguments before making such a dramatic ruling against a respected jurist. Ethics experts told ThinkProgress that, even with the court’s extraordinary ruling, the chance that it would order an entirely new trial is slight, and would require a finding that the misconduct prejudiced the entire trial — a more extreme conclusion than the court’s finding that Scheindlin’s “impartiality might reasonably be questioned.”

    Even the city recognized in its motion that vacating Scheindlin’s ruling would be a “rare” remedy. But it argues that Scheindlin’s alleged conduct — telling lawyers that she would take this litigation as “related” to another case, and purportedly talking to reporters about the case — so tainted public perception that it doesn’t matter whether or not she had “actual bias.” This argument is likely Bloomberg’s last shot at invalidating the ruling that ordered federal oversight of his stop-and-frisk program. Oral argument in the case will not be scheduled until at least March, and if de Blasio drops the appeal, the court monitoring and other reforms ordered by Scheindlin will likely go into effect.

    Meanwhile, Judge Scheindlin herself has intervened in the case, represented by several prominent lawyers, to ask that that the appeals panel withdraw its unprompted ethics findings and prevent the “unseemly dispute among judges” from “distracting attention from the underlying merits.” One of the lawyers leading this effort, NYU legal scholar Burt Newborne, called the latest move by Bloomberg administration lawyers “judicial McCarthyism.”

  3. #8808
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyGreenJerusalem View Post

    Australia has accepted the boat by the way, backing down from the standoff. So Abbott's three plans to stop boats, taken to the election - to buy boats off Indonesians to stop them from getting to Smugglers, to pay bounties for Smugglers or information on them, and to turn around boats - have all been stomped on by the Indonesians as imposing on their sovereignty. Just like they said they would before the election.
    So this isn't even a surprise, this is something everyone had been told was coming and it got ignored? I can see why the hashtag #thisiswhatyouvotedfor got invented.

    But parts of your press ignoring that you've backed down on one of the boats is some shabby shit. Do they think the Australian public are too stupid to hear about this story elsewhere and go "hey, YOU didn't report that, hmmmm"?
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  4. #8809
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    Rupert Murdoch is Australian. It certainly worked here.
    'Dox out.

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  5. #8810
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    Because nobody gives a shit.
    Pretty much. William Hague was pulled up on Channel 4 News last week about Sri Lanka and again yesterday, giving the same answer.

  6. #8811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    So this isn't even a surprise, this is something everyone had been told was coming and it got ignored? I can see why the hashtag #thisiswhatyouvotedfor got invented.

    But parts of your press ignoring that you've backed down on one of the boats is some shabby shit. Do they think the Australian public are too stupid to hear about this story elsewhere and go "hey, YOU didn't report that, hmmmm"?
    Yeah, I can't imagine why they'd think that.
    Christ, do I have to do all the thinking for the entire fucking Internet? - Michael P

  7. #8812

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    So this isn't even a surprise, this is something everyone had been told was coming and it got ignored? I can see why the hashtag #thisiswhatyouvotedfor got invented.

    But parts of your press ignoring that you've backed down on one of the boats is some shabby shit. Do they think the Australian public are too stupid to hear about this story elsewhere and go "hey, YOU didn't report that, hmmmm"?
    They just cut super payments to the working poor (superannuation is our private pensions system, it works in parallel with a means-tested government pension system) and blew al lthe money plus $3 billion more on giving additionalsuper tax benefits to the 16,000 richest people in the country.

    They don't give a shit what people think.
    Last edited by Iangould; 11-11-2013 at 01:42 PM.
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  8. #8813
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    I haven't read any of those articles but I'd say they're probably mistaken.
    They've been from academics and ex-diplomats, on Crikey and The Conversation.

    SMH and Guardian have also had speculation along those lines.
    Indonesian culture emphasizes harmony and consensus.

    Indonesia doesn't go public with a dispute unless they're absolutely furious.
    Except that it plays well for them to do so right now, and they want to make clear they aren't Australia's bitch - to Australia and Indonesia.
    And, they didn't make either dispute public - both landed in their lap.

    They're playing Tony's game against him, schooling him in how to behave. They had been taking back boats, but then the spying allegation came up, they said apologise or they wouldn't take more, he didn't, so they didn't take the recent boats.
    People smuggling and people smugglers is a made up issue to win Australian elections, and Indonesia know that, and it's not an issue that worries them either way. They knew we spied for the US, it's just they've got us red handed - perfect time for a squeeze. Much like with Europe and the US, the genuine anger over spying is from the citizens, the governments all knew it was going on, they're just playing it for what it's worth.
    I just don't see there being genuine Indonesian anger over Tony at the moment. All he's done so far is lose face for himself/us, and he's doing that across Asia, he's not challenging them in anyway - I don't think we're at Howard/Megawati yet. Give him time!
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  9. #8814
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    Because nobody gives a shit.

    The Tamils only external backers were India and they stopped supporting them after they assassinated Rajiv Gandhi.

    The civil war was an ongoing sore for decades and the current situation bad as it is for the Tamils causes fewer problems for the international community. (for example, the Sri Lnkangovernment doesn;t traffic armsordrugsliek the LTTE did.)

    Also,Buddhist religious fanatics persecuting and murdering Hindus doesn't fit in with the simplistic worldview of most westerners. If the Sinhala were Muslims or the Tamils were Christians, they'd be all over it.
    I'm not saying we do it because we care*,I'm saying we do it to stop a large source of Asylum Seekers**, and because it gives us someone who we can justly kick the arse of, and win!


    *I wanna do it because we care, but when it comes to selling it to the public at large...

    **I don't care bout that, but some sure seem to.
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  10. #8815
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Rupert Murdoch is Australian. It certainly worked here.
    WAS Australian.

    He's been a US citizen since the 80's.
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  11. #8816
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    So this isn't even a surprise, this is something everyone had been told was coming and it got ignored? I can see why the hashtag #thisiswhatyouvotedfor got invented.
    They wanted to get tough on boats at the election, and then Rudd went tougher/less humane than Labor had ever gone before, and it worked, so the LIBs had to get even tougher, and thus sillier.
    Indonesia said they wouldn't accept the policies, the Libs played the "Of course they'll say that, but they'll still play along." The then Foreign Minister said that's not the way to deal with Indonesia - they decried him as a partisan hack. Heck, the Libs even tried saying that Indonesia had given them a nod and a wink in a meeting to suggest their policies were ok, and when Indonesia held a press conference and released minutes to denounce this claim, the Libs said they were just playing along with Labor.

    In his 13 years of power, John Howard towed four boats back to Indonesia. It was a different time, with different amounts of refugees, and our countries in different relationships, but the Libs decided to chase that as their dream.
    But parts of your press ignoring that you've backed down on one of the boats is some shabby shit. Do they think the Australian public are too stupid to hear about this story elsewhere and go "hey, YOU didn't report that, hmmmm"?
    It's like the tabloids over your way, mate. If pressed on it, they'd claim reports were unclear and unconfirmed, like that's never stopped them before.
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  12. #8817
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Australia's latest Parliament have all been sworn in today. (House Of Reps has, I believe Senate is tomorrow). New speaker, Bronwyn Bishop, has not only announced her intention to introduce new house orders - independents are worried they will not be able to introduce private members bills - but she's breaking with tradition and is going to attend Liberal party briefings and strategy sessions.
    The speaker had always been an odd role - the adjudicator put in power by the party in government - but they usually at last make as how of independence, rather than going to the meeting where they plan how they will handle question time.
    Basically, not only is the judge employed by the defence, and cheering for the defence, they'll be going to the meetings where defence decides how to play each day, and the game in the long term.

    Fuck I wish Labor's caucus showed some sense and let Albo in to the job. He'd have already ripped Abbo a new arsehole, and come up with three new nicknames for him. Scroll down and check it out - Shorten actually looks like the fucker.
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  13. #8818

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyGreenJerusalem View Post
    I'm not saying we do it because we care*,I'm saying we do it to stop a large source of Asylum Seekers**, and because it gives us someone who we can justly kick the arse of, and win!


    *I wanna do it because we care, but when it comes to selling it to the public at large...

    **I don't care bout that, but some sure seem to.
    We have no leverage over Sri Lanka though.

    Besides Liberals would rather spend money on locking dirty foreigners up than on helping them.
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  14. #8819
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    We have no leverage over Sri Lanka though.
    We got the Australian Defence Force, mate. What better leverage is there in the world?

    Seriously though, I figure we could probably shit talk them some more, for a start. Leverage or not, an economic sanction never hurts.
    Nothing would be better than seeing Abbott grovel to them and Malaysia at international meetings again.
    Besides Liberals would rather spend money on locking dirty foreigners up than on helping them.
    Even if helping them would stop them doing that thing that makes you want to lock them up?

    This is why I hate Tories.
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  15. #8820
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    On the subject of Tories, our fucking lot have decided to throw out the idea to regrow the state when (if) we recover, which is of course something all parties were promising at the election. Instead it's the great UK fire sale as Cameron flogs off whatever he can to his backers and their mates.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...fficient-state

    If ever a picture told a story about inequality in the UK it's this one...

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