Last edited by dshipp17; 06-21-2012 at 11:47 AM.
I'm not quite sure I'm following you there, but she says "I love. Everyone." and this includes Hades, a male god whom I don't think she finds very desirable. She also acts lovingly towards the male Amazons.we still have the question of rather this love is for women only which is not all loving (or to extend only to men desirable to her, along with a general love of all women). That's not quite what all loving really means.
I don't follow. This implies that at least some of them distrust and possibly hate men, but not necessarily that this attitude led to their choosing seclusion. They might even have developed this attitude after they were settled on the island--perhaps, as I mentioned, in part because of bad conscience and their emotional need to "other" their victims..Likely, they did have a choice or there would have been some type of warning about men being on the island other than threatening men simply by virtue of labeling themselves as Amazons.
It's a hypothesis, not an assumption--and if anything, I would hypothesize that rescue was involved. But we don't know. I thought of it partly because Outside_85 mentioned that they had seen men from the worst perspective, and because, as I mentioned, Amazons were reincarnated victims of murder by men in Perez's run and were victims of an abusive invasion by Hercules' men in various runs starting with Marstons.Why even mention being rescued even after using 'if' if you we're making a broad assumption that being rescued wasn't involved?
I'm not sure individual violence would have been as likely to lead to withdrawal from the world as a widespread pattern of misogyny. Certainly people of both genders can abuse people of both genders, but historically,women have often been in a vulnerable position and have been victims of systemic misogyny.And it's that kind of systemic, ubiquitous hostility that seems (to me) to be more likely to motivate people to retreat from the world. But sure, if you're point is that their retreat from a two-gendered world could possibly have been inspired by something other than misogyny, I can' disagree with that.Being in a bad experience still doesn't mean that anyone involved was misogynistic; that's a strong word; treating someone badly is a gender neutral action so you should dispense with the phrase "treated misogynisticly"; a lot of men have also been treated badly by women.
I agree with you that it's irrational, bu sometimes, people do act hatefully towards an entire group of people, whether they explicitly say they hate that group or not.I can't see how someone can be rational with themselves and say they hate the entire rest of that group
What? She wasn't in love with him, or didn't love him in that particular way in which one loves a spouse, and he tried to entrap her by shooting her in the heart and by theatening someone she loved, and then he tried to test her love on penalty of death. Not wanting to marry someone on those conditions has nothing to do with conceit; it's matter of self-respect and integrity.Well, you said she loved herself too much to marry Hades; that is reflective of conceited self-love
She didn't say she loved herself too much; I'm saying that her healthy self-love or self-respect wouldn't allow her to marry someone whom she didn't love in that particular way, or someone who wanted to possess her and didn't trust her.stating that she loved herself too much to marry Hades places limits on loving everyone
Certainly, and Diana has shown that she's willing to sacrifice itself. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't love herself (in the positive sense), or that she should allow herself to be possessed by someone who doesn't trust her.Jesus said something else, actually, which goes to the implied love your neighbor as yourself when he said give your life for your friends just before going to the cross.
Last edited by slvn; 06-21-2012 at 02:37 PM.
My work: http://www.fanfiction.net/~outside85
The concept of "loving yourself before being able to love others" was totally misrepresented in the context presented by the mirror. To love yourself does not mean that you love your reflection in a mirror. It means that you are content with who you are and the decisions you have taken in your life, or having come to terms of acceptance inspite of them. It means that you feel fulfilled and comfortable in your own skin.
Loving yourself in a mirror just makes you some form of narcissistic shallow being.
Did anyone see the classic Snow White...? I doubt the evil queen was capable of loving anyone even though she loved her beauty and reflection.
The classic Eros 'bow shot' is that 'you fall in love with the next person you see.' The next person Hell saw was himself, so that's who he now loves, or at least that's the plan. He doesn't love his appearance - that's not how Eros works - he loves the person, just as Diana was supposed to love him.
The effects must be of some limited longetivity.
I guess the effect is different. It must be the person you are looking at the moment you get shot. If not, then Diana would start loving unconditionally Zola or Hermes (if Hades loved himself and the guns worked)
But yeah, he will start loving himself, not his reflection, anyway.
Wonder Woman loves you too.
Maybe it's like what people often say about young love--it's white-hot passionate, and depending on what the lovers do with it, it might flare out or mellow into something mature. (But the chances probably aren't very good if someone used the gun on his or her own behalf or asked Eros to do it; trying to force someone to fall in love with you can't be a good start.)
As for loving yourself vs. loving your reflection, I think it's a really interesitng question, but kind of a fine line. To love yourself, even in a good way, you probably have to have some kind of image of yourself that you find worthy of love. From what Heph says, it sounds like Eros is genuinely at home in his own skin--in at least hjealthy enough a way to make the guns work--but also loves himself more than he needs to and is narcissistic (ant least enough for a loving but wry dad to make fun of). I know vanity can come from insecurity--which is the case with the Queen in Snow White--but in Eros' case, maybe he just genuinely finds himself awesome.
I wouldn't mind if this actually were to acutally become a plot point later on. Maybe Hades will more secure but also a bit vain. Maybe to make it work, Heph had to make a mirror that shows a person who he or she really is, not just a mirror image, and Wonder Woman or someone else may need it later on.
Byu thw way, I also wouldn't mind if it turns out later that Hades' father Kronos managed to escape during all the uproar. He makes a fien chair, but could probably also be a good troubelmaker.
Last edited by slvn; 06-21-2012 at 03:46 PM.
Here's a graphic I made for a Villainy, Inc. revival page that I never built. Honestly, I don't think Strife looks anymore grotesquely feminine than Wonder Woman's other villains. All of the villainesses, I think, are appropriately creepy or monstrous, and I can't say that Strife's cold-ass attitude makes her any less feminine than Doctor Cyber.
I don't think the woman-as-monster is anything new in the pages of WW. If anything, it's classically WW.
BTW...my Virbius the Unkillable (Wondy's cousin, Prince Hippolytos) page is still up here.
Last edited by MelDyer; 06-21-2012 at 04:19 PM.
Slvn - I really enjoyed your post on the various ways Diana has shown love/concern for others. Well done, sir.
Maximum Impact already covered this with his statement: "The crux of the point with the Amazons is they were trashed yet characters we don't care about like Heph and Lennox get to be good."
But I'll try to elaborate, hopefully without ranting (too much ):
In short, I want more balance. In terms of the supporting characters, the background, the changes made, it has been very male-centric, so far (imo).
- As you said, "Yes we havent seen most of the female ones," and what we have seen has mostly been very negative. While for the males, we get to see many of them, and get to see a variety of personalities (eg, good and bad, etc). Not balanced.
- Azzarello said the Amazons were too "perfect" and needed "dirt." Then he creates a peaceful group of artisan men led by all-wise, all-caring Pappa Smurf version of Heph? Not balanced.
- Posters have claimed that this version of the Amazons is more inline with the myths (which is true). Well, Azzarello's version of Heph is a glorified white-washed version, leaving out his vindictive side. Not true to the "dirt" in the myths. Only the worst of the myths for the Amazons, but the best of the myths for Heph? Not balanced.
The DCU is already very heavily male-centric, so more and more men added to one of the few titles to actually showcase women, and done in a way that trashes many of the women, namely the Amazons, does not make me a happy camper.
"... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
It could be that since Hades didn't have any love for himself, a bullet of love would make him love just a little bit, not in some obsessive way.
Wonder Woman loves you too.