Batman Incorporated #2 Preview/Discussion SPOILERS

[Retro315]

Well said.

Joker hating Talia is funny, and Grant's run has had interesting but unexplored parallels between the two. Joker and Talia both are responsible for dismantling the Black Glove, but Joker jealously eliminated it while Talia subtly infiltrated it then absorbed its resources. Joker killed her mole. Joker and Talia both knew more about the Black Glove than Batman (and us the readers). Talia was frequently seen wearing purple (as was Jezebel Jet; basically those seeking the affection of Batman wore purple).

Him hating her seems silly, but the jealous wanting of Batman's attention and secretly working to rid him of enemies so their own wars with him can continue unimpeded is a huge parallel. What's more, there's both of their involvement in Jason Todd's story, the criss-crossing that happened where they both featured in the same issues, just one "local" and the other "international". I don't know if Joker would hate her or not. I do know that despite how much I liked it, the ending in Arkham City seems unlikely, as I believe Talia would be the one with the upper hand, not the reverse.

[Retro315]

Her drugging Bruce's drink isn't problematic (for her, I strongly favor my "forget the bat-condom for its implications for Batman); either she was helpless before the force of Ra's personality and "parenting" or she has chosen/given into the temptation of villainy. If it is the former, then it can't be because of "daddy didn't love me" and if it is the latter then it's a case of "immoral being immoral." (which all applies to Leviathan writ large)

Shattering the super-villainess glass ceiling definitely feels like a motivator here. Talia can easily be the premiere, if not "first ever" than "greatest ever" female evil genius master criminal.

There's also Batman's personal history to take into account. She knows a great deal about him, and looking at, say, his relationship with the Joker, she knows that he's highly likely to pay more attention to her the more villainous she becomes. I don't know that this is overt in her mission statement; she's a "perfect" woman scorned so it'd be more an unconscious motive. It's also a very real human reaction, sort of the super-villain equivalent to a breakup where a guy or girl moves onto some new jerk boyfriend or girlfriend, and you somehow in your head twist that into "Oh she likes jerks? Well then, I'll be the biggest jerk ever! (Secretly I hope me being a jerk somehow wins her back...)" Compare to "oh they like skinny/this type/this type/or this type?".

"I'm going to use the kid as a weapon against the ex," this sort of the classic tropish divorcee Betty Draper move, turned into "Oh crap the kid respects Dad more because he's "honest" (at least, "more honest") and tells it like it is and lives in ultra-hip downtown Gotham rather than the boring suburbs of international evil hideouts". Batman wins the custody battle because you know ... she's an evil super criminal. Her initial plan backfired quite badly. He's a good guy.

So apart from feeling a bit cliched and trope-heavy (which a fictional history constructed from pieces of already seen or speculated bits of continuity), Talia's motives feel honest. Child of the world's greatest something-or-other surpassing their parent. The reason it is actually subversive is because it's finally a woman capable of superseding her own past roles in continuity and smashing her way onto equal ground with the male characters who supposedly dominated her life for so long.

After all, if Talia had been introduced as a guy - if Ra's had had a son, and there wasn't the "romantic interest for Batman" aspect, she would have totally killed her father and taken over the criminal empire by now. Now THAT would have been cliched (See, Ra's al Ghul himself, who is attempting to kill his own father, The Sensei). The reason Talia becomes more interesting is because she does love her daddy, and is capable of ruthlessly usurping his forces but still pulling off the "I love you daddy, now watch as I'm just as villainous as you" angle without it becoming some battle of wills between father and child that ends in violence. She'd rather keep playing games than end them so decisively.

[mex4173]

I'd agree with you IF we saw more (or any) of her building her own criminal empire.
On a panel-by-panel basis, a LOT more emphasis was put on her daddy issues. And it kept piling on the cliches:
- child's drawings showing their longed-for life? Check.
- parent missing out on their child's recital and child is crushed? Check.
- parent lashing out at the child in a moment of weakness, revealing they're not perfect? Check.
- parent hiding the truth about the child's other parent? Check.
- child given material possession in lieu of love and affection? Check.
- child trying to talk to the parent, but is ignored because they're focused on business? Check.

One of those is enough. All of them together is a cliche storm.
This is, BTW, the plot to 'Hook', 'Liar Liar', countless sitcom episodes, a few Eddie Murphy films. I'm pretty sure Adam Sandler's done it too.

BUT I don't mind it. I just think it needs to be acknowledged.

There's certainly a fine line between "daddy issues" and "raised by super-villain," and there's an element of nature vs. nurture (i.e. can Talia make a reasoned decision to emulate Ra's after being raised by him, or is her thinking too corrupted already). The key question: is having a Ra's Al Ghul as a father itself a daddy issue? Or put another way, is it possible to separate bad parenting from mommy/daddy issues?

Either way, it's a small distinction in personal reading of the text. I highly doubt there is a right or wrong interpretation of the matter.

Also, Talia drugging Bruce so she can get pregnant is problematic because it turns her into a date rapist. If a male villain did that to a hero, there would be (deservedly) and outcry.

Personally, it's just a matter of evil being evil, but I know others have different views as far as the combination of tone, content, historical context etc.

Also, if she has the technology to grow baby Damien in a lab, why couldn't she steal a sample from Bruce's and fertilize her egg in vitro?

Because at the time she was planning for the two of them to start their dynasty and rule the world. For all her intelligence and cunning, just like Batman, she wasn't totally immune to a desire for family and her own romanticized version of happy ever after (though not the kind you usually find in fairy tales). She misread Batman, either thinking he was already willing or that physically impregnating her would be a stronger form of manipulation* than a test tube baby. Growing Damian in the lab was a back-up plan when it became clear plan A wouldn't work.

[Free-Man]

Him hating her seems silly, but the jealous wanting of Batman's attention and secretly working to rid him of enemies so their own wars with him can continue unimpeded is a huge parallel. What's more, there's both of their involvement in Jason Todd's story, the criss-crossing that happened where they both featured in the same issues, just one "local" and the other "international". I don't know if Joker would hate her or not. I do know that despite how much I liked it, the ending in Arkham City seems unlikely, as I believe Talia would be the one with the upper hand, not the reverse.

That's an interesting thought. Did you mean he wouldn't be able to have defeated her on a physical level, or are we talking strategic as well? Because when you adjust for the fact that it was really Clayface in disguise that nabbed her, Talia being overpowered by the Joker doesn't seem as unlikely, I don't think. Especially if she's simply blindsided by a foe she wouldn't expect.

[Retro315]

That's an interesting thought. Did you mean he wouldn't be able to have defeated her on a physical level, or are we talking strategic as well? Because when you adjust for the fact that it was really Clayface in disguise that nabbed her, Talia being overpowered by the Joker doesn't seem as unlikely, I don't think. Especially if she's simply blindsided by a foe she wouldn't expect.

Rather I feel that very little actually happens to Talia that she doesn't anticipate or want to happen. This is a woman with armies of killer assassins from a shared DC Universe in her employ. She seems like she'd always have her bases covered, in the form of some goon watching her from the nearest building at all times, ready to pounce. Even super-powered goons capable of putting Clayface on ice. The woman's got guardian angels. ("Captured" by Joker? For real?)

But the Arkham Universe is very much its own thing and I dig most of the angles they played with. It has its own rules, laws and ways and I don't expect it to adhere too much to the source material. Its rather I just don't believe the same thing could have happened to the DCU Talia. And apparently neither does Morrison, as the whole angle with Doctor Darrk indicates.

[tylenoljones]

Joker hating Talia is funny, and Grant's run has had interesting but unexplored parallels between the two. Joker and Talia both are responsible for dismantling the Black Glove, but Joker jealously eliminated it while Talia subtly infiltrated it then absorbed its resources. Joker killed her mole. Joker and Talia both knew more about the Black Glove than Batman (and us the readers). Talia was frequently seen wearing purple (as was Jezebel Jet; basically those seeking the affection of Batman wore purple).

Him hating her seems silly, but the jealous wanting of Batman's attention and secretly working to rid him of enemies so their own wars with him can continue unimpeded is a huge parallel. What's more, there's both of their involvement in Jason Todd's story, the criss-crossing that happened where they both featured in the same issues, just one "local" and the other "international". I don't know if Joker would hate her or not. I do know that despite how much I liked it, the ending in Arkham City seems unlikely, as I believe Talia would be the one with the upper hand, not the reverse.

I was agreeing more with the rest of that post than the Joker hating Talia point specifically. I could see it, but hate isn't an emotion I typically associate with the Joker. He seems indifferent to most people, and I wouldn't call his feelings for Batman hatred.

I agree with you about the Arkham City ending. Everything from the point Talia allowed herself to be captured by clayface/ joker wasn't very logical. It felt like the writers started with the ending and just filled in the blanks to end up at that result. The outcome of a Joker / Talia confrontation would depend on the circumstances, but in the scenario Arkham City presented, I think it would've gone the other way, too.

[tylenoljones]

That's an interesting thought. Did you mean he wouldn't be able to have defeated her on a physical level, or are we talking strategic as well? Because when you adjust for the fact that it was really Clayface in disguise that nabbed her, Talia being overpowered by the Joker doesn't seem as unlikely, I don't think. Especially if she's simply blindsided by a foe she wouldn't expect.

It would depend on what you would accept as a defeat. If the Joker set his attentions on Talia, he most likely wouldn't try to simply beat her in a fight, or even kill her. At least not right away. He might go for Damian, if he learned of their blood ties, or he might target Batman. But Joker gets most of his kicks toying with Batman, and there would certainly be easier people to target than Talia that would hurt Batman just as much, if that was his goal.

[tylenoljones]

hahahahaha!!!

No.

That's hilarious.

Just wishful thinking, I guess.

[NinjaMic]

C,mon, let's be honest: if it was any writer other than Morrison (like say, a certain other Batman writer) we'd all be tearing them to strips for relying on such hoary old clichés.

It's true....but people will never admit it

[Retro315]

It's true....but people will never admit it

I'm certainly biased and can no doubt be placed squarely in that category ... but if it was any other writer it would've taken half a dozen more issues to do it, despite whether they used the hoary old cliches and tropes well or not. And rather than play it straight they'd be too tempted to jazz it up with some shocking twist. Also they'd have released it as an unnecessary six-part mini-series. Talia: Lost Days or something.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah if it was a different writer (like Snyder) it would have been a huge build up with a reveal and some dialogue about the motivation, not the one issue condensation of Talia's history the way Morrison did.

[Retro315]

Also, Talia drugging Bruce so she can get pregnant is problematic because it turns her into a date rapist. If a male villain did that to a hero, there would be (deservedly) and outcry.

No disagreement, but then again, Grant isn't the writer who had her sex up a 16/17 year old. I realize the New 52 has probably de-aged Jason Todd from what he was when that story was written (possibly 18?), but dulling Bruce's senses so she can get something out of him, horribly unethical and non-conducive or not, seems ... a few ethics points less unsavory than statutory rape of a minor, right?

I'll not disagree with anyone who believes Grant's Talia is out-of-character having the same feelings about Talia in Winick's story. Somehow I can totally accept one and kind of grimace at the lameness and lack of originality in the other. Indeed in Bruce's case, stealing his seed or whatever, you might even wonder if Ra's al Ghul sort of pressured her into it.

[Mr. Holmes]

I think Lost Days is being written out by RHatO #0.

[batcowlives]

I wish the issue had continued with the only Damien being shot storyline but the story of Talia wasn't bad.

[jgiannantoni05]

I'll not disagree with anyone who believes Grant's Talia is out-of-character having the same feelings about Talia in Winick's story.

I think one can think Grant's Talia is out of character perhaps. But I would say Morrison didn't start this direction for Talia. Many Talia writers after O'Neil had her do pretty bad things.