Heroes vs heroes - what do you feel about it?

[squashmaster]

It can be extremely cheap.

Case in point: Avengers vs. X-Men.

It can also be pretty cool if there's legitimate reasons that are based on good characterization.

Case in point: Civil War.

[The Black Guardian]

Heroes fighting heroes is like one cop fighting another. No matter how you slice it, it's just sad. I never, ever like it, but sometimes it briefly has a point.

[Nomads1]

I'm curious as to how Avengers/Defenders war would be received today.

I really don't think that there's a fair way of answering that question. Many reasons why. Different age, different tastes, different audience, and so on... As much as we may love those classics of the 60 and 70's, very few of them aged particularly well. Steve Englehart, in particular is one of those writers whose dialogue is so dated that it's almost painful to read nowadays (though, still a great writer, and a definitive influnce on the medium). So, then, of course, the tale would have to be updated for today's audience, then you'd hit another snag as to what I talked about earlier. When Avengers/ Defenders happened, the MU was still relatively new, it was what? 15 years or so old? Interactions were still few and recents and relationships were still being established. For example, Cap and Namor, though there was some mention of them having fought side by side in WWII, their past as fellow Invaders was still yet to be fully developed in Roy Thomas' Invaders, Namor hadn't served as an Avenger, and they hadn't yet had as many interactions as they have nowadays. Then, I found it belieavable, now, It's kind of silly that two such longtime allies wouldn't even give peace a chance. (Of course, THEN, it would also only work if you iignore completely Bendis Illuminatti retcon. What, Strange Namor and Iron Man couldn't have a side chat and prevent all that?).
So, taking all that into account, I really can't imagine a fair way of answering that question. If presented as it originally was, it'd feel dated, if transprted to nowadays, it'd feel as silly, as, IMHO, AvsX does.

Peace

[Spidey_Legend]

Hero VS Hero.

Works the first time.
A maybe for second.
Third is crap.

Unfortunately, Marvel is in the third strike.

[Rasputin9977]

In theory it can be okay, but most of the time its tripe.... often it makes the combatants look silly, because they are fighting good guy v good guy, for reasons that wouldn't get a pair of seven years old fighting.

And.... also... very often known power ratings are completely ignored, and the fight result is inconclusive, even though result would be obvious to a blind guy in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there anyway.

I avoid them wherever possible.

Yep. nuMarvels hero v hero ate all hype and little to no story behind it. It's a gimmick that's been done to death. Sometimes the classics shouldn't be altered.

[Rasputin9977]

It's not a new thing with Marvel.

That was kind of the point of the thread.

Meh. You can say its a new way. Before, hero v hero was fun amd a misunderstanding. There's even a running joke about it in their comics. These days its gritty and tries too hard.

[Monty_Cristo]

Heroes fighting heroes is like one cop fighting another. No matter how you slice it, it's just sad. I never, ever like it, but sometimes it briefly has a point.

feds clash with local police all the time. these hero teams are like sports teams or street gangs. that they are territorial makes sense; even moreso when you consider how violent the lifestyle is.

[Hulk_Is]

Sometimes I believe posters confuse Marvel comics for DC comics (or another publisher). Marvel's superheroes have been in-fighting or fighting non-super villains since I've been reading, at least.

Some of my earliest memories show Ben Grimm first turning into the Thing and the rest of the Four having to subdue him, the Avengers putting Captain America through a gauntlet because they were unsure it was "the real McCoy", or the Hulk fighting and threatening, well, everbody!

I suggest instead of complaining about Marvel's heroes in-fighting that you seek out books from other publishers that gives you heroes vs villains - if that suits your fancy. Make Mine Marvel even if that entails Aunt May vs Willie Lumpkin.

[whiteshark]

Hero vs hero is part of the super hero comics since the start.
It is all part of the fun of super hero comics,and part of the whole which is the strongest super hero (Ex:Who is stronger?Thor or Hulk)
Marvel comics since the 60s had that theme,and is good to see that still being used nowadays but just in more complex and detailed storylines.

[mikekerrIII]

Really, the one hero vs. hero fight I liked was Hercules vs. Thor in "The Mighty Thorcules." They were giving each other WEDGIES! What's not to enjoy?

Otherwise, hero vs. hero is kind of overdone, along with a bunch of other stuff...

I like fights like that where there is a honest diffence between the two, but the mangling they have to do to characters with their Hero Vs Hero events is tiresome.

I think if you have to write a character as someone else to make the event work that not writing the event probably makes more sense. That is true for CW and AvX

[mikekerrIII]

feds clash with local police all the time. these hero teams are like sports teams or street gangs. that they are territorial makes sense; even moreso when you consider how violent the lifestyle is.

Local Cops and the Feds seldom break out into gunfights.

[Monty_Cristo]

Local Cops and the Feds seldom break out into gunfights.

because there are laws against it. superheroes see themselves as above the law. don't you remember that Marvel Civil War fight?

[jackolover]

Don't want to turn this into a CW debate. There are pleanty of threads for this already. My opinion is that CW was explored in a shot-sighted kind of way. Due to Millar's (and most of Marvel's) plot driven way of writing, everything had to conform with and advance his plot. There had to be two drasctically opposite sides. There wasn't much justification as to who would choose each side, there could be no middle ground, if one side said black, the other had to say white, and so on... As a result, IMHO, a theme that could result in quite a lot of thought provoking stories ended up as an senseless chest pumping, ---- mesuring contest between Iron Man and Captain America. Marvel wanted to get from A to B, didn't care much how they had to do it. Like a lot of Marvel's publications in recent years, IMHO, CW had a lot of potential, but failed to live up to it. Maybe it's the plot-driven way of writing.

Peace

Also not wanting to make this CW sidetracking, what would you have suggested to achieve the proper thought provoking stories?

[USERNAME TAKEN]

Sometimes I believe posters confuse Marvel comics for DC comics (or another publisher). Marvel's superheroes have been in-fighting or fighting non-super villains since I've been reading, at least.

Some of my earliest memories show Ben Grimm first turning into the Thing and the rest of the Four having to subdue him, the Avengers putting Captain America through a gauntlet because they were unsure it was "the real McCoy", or the Hulk fighting and threatening, well, everbody!

I suggest instead of complaining about Marvel's heroes in-fighting that you seek out books from other publishers that gives you heroes vs villains - if that suits your fancy. Make Mine Marvel even if that entails Aunt May vs Willie Lumpkin.

This basically and it's what I said at the beginning of the thread.

Marvel isn't like DC where heroes are worshiped and everyone gets along. There's real tension between heroes in the Marvel universe which always leads to squabbles.

As you rightly said, the Marvel hero scrap has always been a part of their stories. I think readers complaining about it now are post Civil War readers who aren't really used to stuff like this.

[jackdaw53]

This basically and it's what I said at the beginning of the thread.

Marvel isn't like DC where heroes are worshiped and everyone gets along. There's real tension between heroes in the Marvel universe which always leads to squabbles.

As you rightly said, the Marvel hero scrap has always been a part of their stories. I think readers complaining about it now are post Civil War readers who aren't really used to stuff like this.

Why think that? Its patently not true, there's a goodly number of veteran Marvel readers that are fairly fed up of large majority of hero v hero scraps.

And.. as many point out... its largely a matter of how its written, especially whether it passes two tests "are the participants written in character" and "is scrap realistic given known power ratings"??

A bit (okay a lot) of friendly horse play between Johnny Storm and Ben G is fine, Hulk fighting any body is fine. But serious fights between supposedly rationale adults (and Marvel has plenty of characters written that way) over differences that should be talked through by any sane person.... that's daft. Street level characters (again Marvel has many) surviving a fight against likes of Hulk or Thor (or indeed lasting more than a few seconds).... again that's daft.