What characters would you deem "quasi-superheroes?"

[Gothos]

In other words, fictional characters who do most of the hyper-active things that costumed superheroes do, but aren't generally recognized as "superheroes" due to the lack of costumes.

Tarzan, James Bond and Flash Gordon would be some of the usual suspects.

I would extend the same category to "quasi-supervillains" as long as they're the stars of their stories, a la Fu Manchu.

[destro]

The Shadow and Doc Savage for sure. The Phantom is a good example, it's tough to categorize him. He wears a costume that is very super hero like, but doesn't quite fit into that mold.

Many of the pulp heroes kind of stride the line between super heroes and noir (Shadow) or sci-fi (Doc Savage) heroes.

[prince hal]

I would add to the already impressive suggestions: Odysseus. Heracles. Sherlock Holmes. Indiana Jones. Robin Hood. Conan.

[Polar Bear]

The Scarlet Pimpernel, Jimmy "The Grey Seal" Dale, Mandrake the Magician, Conan, Mowgli, Sherlock Holmes, Charlie Chan, and Robin Hood--for starters!

If you wanted to expand the list to real-life people who became legends, you have Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley, Wild Bill Hickock (sp?), Geronimo, Sundiata Keita, Miyamoto Musashi, and hundreds more. For villains, you have Al Capone, Bonnie and Clyde, Dillinger, Jesse James, Blackbeard, etc. If you're Spanish, put Sir Francis Drake down as a villain; if not, reverse it.

(I know you said "fictional," but if there's a real-life Buffalo Bill--which there was--what are we to do with the many, many dime novels revealing his fictional exploits, or with Sundiata, who was a real king of Mali, but whose legend grew to truly fantastic proportions? It's a problem.)

Finally, there's mythology: Hercules, Theseus, Icarus & Dedalus (sp?), Jason, Gilgamesh, Sindbad, etc.

How far do you want to go with this?

[Polar Bear]

I would add to the already impressive suggestions: Odysseus. Heracles. Sherlock Holmes. Indiana Jones. Robin Hood. Conan.

Rats, ya beat me while I was drafting. Good pick on Indy, by the way.

[BDiogenes]

Gothos, your premise requires refllection: is it "lack of costume" or lack of superpowers, nifty gizmos, and/or special abilities? Batman has the latter two but not the first; aren't those which make him a superhero? There have been superheroes and supervillains sans costumes, Sandman in the early days and the Hulk, e.g.. I've not seen or read Bond, but isn't JB basically Batman in a different context? This was my immediate reaction much earlier, and I figured someone else would mention it.

[Sean@CharitablePress]

Pretty much all of the characters from The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, though some of them ARE too superhuman to be considered less. Then there are the spectacular characters that I've created. Zing! :P And then there is my favorite of all-time: Popeye.

To expand upon BDiogenes statement above, it seems that the difference between "real" and "quasi" superheroes falls into one of two categories: Being created in either a different medium than comic books and/or before the "superhero" age began with Action Comics #1 OR being considered a "realistic hero" in a modern sense. Batman is definitely in the gray area.

[Gothos]

Gothos, your premise requires refllection: is it "lack of costume" or lack of superpowers, nifty gizmos, and/or special abilities? Batman has the latter two but not the first; aren't those which make him a superhero? There have been superheroes and supervillains sans costumes, Sandman in the early days and the Hulk, e.g.. I've not seen or read Bond, but isn't JB basically Batman in a different context? This was my immediate reaction much earlier, and I figured someone else would mention it.

It's my opinion that the lack of costumes is the most recognizeable aspect of the superhero, and that's what people respond to first when it comes to calling someone a superhero. Of course I've seen any number of fan-arguments that claim Batman can't be a superhero unless he has superpowers, which I consider an argument based in extreme literalism.

I'd go far enough to say that "quasi-superheroes" could even include characters with none of the four attributes you name, as long as they take on weird or gimmick-using crooks, such as the already named Indiana Jones, Dick Tracy, and Jack (BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA) Burton.

However, I *wouldn't* include characters who don't suggest a "super-"normal nature, like the Scarlet Pimpernel or more mundane adventurers like Terry Lee. There are also some characters who dabble in fighting supernormal evil-- the Ringo Kid has just one adventure fighting an evil scientist-- but it's so rare that I wouldn't include them.

[BDiogenes]

Gothos, I think Sean has added to the analysis with his point about source medium and era; you wouldn't call anyone super before Superman so how do you categorize Zorro, the Lone Ranger (our moderator!), the Green Hornet, and the Shadow, all of whom did wear costumes? Real or quasi? My conclusion is that superhero is just the current term and the predecessors might have been as super without the label.

[Gothos]

Gothos, I think Sean has added to the analysis with his point about source medium and era; you wouldn't call anyone super before Superman so how do you categorize Zorro, the Lone Ranger (our moderator!), the Green Hornet, and the Shadow, all of whom did wear costumes? Real or quasi? My conclusion is that superhero is just the current term and the predecessors might have been as super without the label.

I don't understand the point about not calling characters "super before Superman." "Superman" was a common epithet several years before the character. There's a famous oft-reprinted house ad where Doc Savage is called a "superman" even though he wears suit-clothes. I found John Carter referred to as a "superman" in 1913's WARLORD OF MARS.

I introduced the term "quasi-superheroes" just because it seems like this is where a lot of these discussions end up: everyone has an almost archetypal idea of what a superhero is or is not. Some may be a little more comfortable calling the Shadow a superhero because he wears a costume. Others hesitate to include the costumed Batman because he doesn't have superpowers. So I thought it might be interesting to posit a general "genetic family" of related figures-- I'm currently undecided on what to call them as a group-- of which "normative superheroes," whatever one defines them to be, are a subgroup.

On a related note, I'm curious to find out if anyone else thinks that anyone, no matter how normal-looking, might become a "quasi" by virtue of fighting a supernormal enemy. It's one thing to mention well-known figures like James Bond, but how about Jack Burton, Jack Armstrong and (here's a real obscurity for you) "Biff Baxter."

[BDiogenes]

I know nothing about Doc Savage or John Carter. The only precedent in my mind would've been F. Nietzsche with his book but in German. I'm not one who would have an archetypal notion about being a superhero. A genetic tree is a fine idea.

[foxley]

Off the top of my head:

John Carter of Mars
Tarzan
Zorro
Doc Savage
The Shadow
The Spider
G-8
The Avenger
Sun Koh
Buck Rogers
Flash Gordon
The Doctor (Doctor Who)
Adam Adamant
The Executioner

[Trallis]

Luke Skywalker
Achilles
Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Cei-U!]

I think a more apt term for characters like Tarzan, Popeye, Doc Savage, Phantom and Green Hornet is "proto-superheroes." As Jim Steranko pointed out in his seminal Steranko History of Comics, Superman was the first true super-hero in the modern sense because he was the first to combine superhuman powers, a double identity and a skin-tight costume. These three elements, along with the kid sidekick and a contemporary urban setting, are what the average (i.e., non-comic reading) schmoe on the street thinks of when he/she thinks of super-heroes (or did, at least, until the many super-hero movies of the last 12-15 years expanded their horizons). Ultimately, of course, it's all semantics but that's why I have a really hard time thinking of characters like James Bond or Sherlock Holmes as "super-heroes."

Cei-U!
I summon the pioneers!

[MWGallaher]

The "vampires" of the Twilight series. I saw one of the movies and, aside from one short scene where the "good vampires" were tempted when the girl character cut herself, it was really nothing but a romance movie with superhero trappings. The "vampires" each have some unique superpower, they maintain civilian identities in which they pass as ordinary people in the community, they have their own teams, they have their arch enemies, they team up with the werewolves, they protect humans, they go out on missions, etc.