When and how would you say Post-Crisis Superman flundered?

[Space_Butler]

The first crash for me was shortly after they got married, right before Electric Superman. Nothing in particular I can think of as far as why I stopped reading, I just didn't care that much anymore (combined with moving to an area without a shop in good proximity). Hopped back on around 2004-ish and bought trades of the more important arcs like President Lex, as well as collecting monthlies again. This lasted right up until New Krypton, which killed it for me once again for that whole year. I bought Cornell's Action issues, though.

Looking at Post Crisis Supermans timeline of stories overall, I'd say a graph of its quality would probably resemble a roller coaster. The really good parts didn't last more than a year or two, but the really lame stuff didn't last for more than a couple years as well.

[Mat001]

I'm not going to say that the books flundered, but I will say that a lack of direction following "Our Worlds At War" hurt. And everything a direction was planned out, plans changed which hurt things. In terms of Superman's popularity, it's not the comics that change people's perceptions. It's the internet where it really becomes an issue. When more people are willing to show kick ass Batman moments more than Superman ones, you've got a problem.

[adamisme]

I think for me personally was the writing, Superman is a great character and has the potential to be a very interesting one, the problem is writers don't seem to know how to show that and we get stories like New Krypton and Grounded. I was a constant reader for many years, but after Infinite Crisis I jumped in and out because I wasn't impressed how they were treating Superman. As one of the flagship heroes for your company, he should be written well and by someone who knows how to write him well

[BBally]

Nothing outright killed the incarnation for me. Without the relaunch I would have still been on board hoping for a longterm plan to fix the myriad of issues (I bailed on the Lex-Action and Grounded but had little intention of staying gone, as I am the eternal optimistic). But if I had to go with what began the descent into inconsistencies, confusion, and mismanagement I'd go with Infinite Crisis. It opened a new can of worms for the character because they had already just committed to Birthright as the official origin before IC just as quickly dethroned it. From that point onward his history became muddled as all hell, and each time one step was taken to bring forth consistency, something else made it go two steps back. And the effort behind the character just seemed to really deflate after IC, with again, periods of rejuvination like the Brainiac arc, with something to follow to let all the air out of the sails in a big way (New Krypton).

Btw anyone who votes for Death of Superman is outright insane (yes, just being facetious). The event itself may have been overhyped but it led to an excellent era of Superman comics. Shouldn't even be an option.

Uuuuuuuh, but I like Action Comics starring Lex Luthor storyline, it was one of the best Lex Luthor stories ever and a major improvement over the character's portrayle in storylines prior to that (I'm looking at you Geoff Johns)

[Fate's Faith]

Not sure when I started to feel a little bored with Superman but I do remember the last issue I purchased. Issue #166. The Silver Age rocket landing at the Kent farm on the last page of that issue and reading online that the origin was getting the good old what you thought was true wasn't true. Bah, really? That's supposed to reenergize the titles? My buying was already lapsing due to other interests at the time. Completely missed out on electric Superman so I guess it was the Death of Superman that made me feel the books just weren't as interesting as I once had found them. And when I was looking to get back into the books, I got that Silver Age rocket and saw it wasn't that I thought they were out of ideas but in fact they were out of ideas.

[J. Robb]

While the creative teams had definitely run out of steam in the late 90s, the real problems began with "Return to Krypton" in 2001 and the obsession with rewriting Superman's past. This would dog the character and his "family" (especially Supergirl) for a decade, and continues today.

[Sacred Knight]

Uuuuuuuh, but I like Action Comics starring Lex Luthor storyline, it was one of the best Lex Luthor stories ever and a major improvement over the character's portrayle in storylines prior to that (I'm looking at you Geoff Johns)

I'm aware I'm in the minority on this one, but one I just wasn't interested in a story involving Lex regardless how good after already having been without Superman on the title for a year at that point. Bad timing. And while the characterization of Lex was really good, I just couldn't get into the story. I was "Blackest Night"ed out by that point; really didn't see the need to base an entire arc of a Superman-based title, even if it was starring a supporting character at the time, on a Green Lantern saga that really had nothing to do with Superman from the onset.

[Kurosawa]

It's hard to say for me, because in so many respects, as the saying goes, I wouldn't start from here.

COIE's conclusion was a mistake. Abandoning the multiverse was a terrible idea.

For me post crisis Superman was irredeemably broken from the get go. Only a hard reboot could fix this.

Anything that amounted to tinkering around the edges in terms of a soft reboot, and the 1990 engagement was all that, wasn't going to do it. Silver age Mythos began making a welcome return around this point, but it didn't fix the core personality traits that had been screwed up by Man of Steel.

Killing Superman - ie revisiting a Silver Age idea was a very creative period, a happy accident, because they couldn't do the 'marriage' another silver age "imaginary story" idea, so given the options it was around the time of the marriage things went wrong.

Evidence the Superman 2000 proposal of 1998, which would have undone the marriage.

But simply stealing from the silver age isn't a guarantee for success as the execution of Superman Red and Superman Blue demonstrates.

Total agreement with all points. It was a bad idea from the get-go.

Why should anyone respect a company that doesn't respect itself? The Silver and Bronze Age Superman books were the biggest books DC ever had, yet a few Marvel guys came over and convinced them to not only dump that version of Superman, but to push the idea that he was stupid. That's part of why Marvel will always be #1-they're proud of who they are, of their history, and they stay true to themselves. Who wants to read a wannabe Marvel comic if you can read the real thing? And it's been so long now that DC couldn't even rediscover who they really are, so they will always be Marvel lite.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't think that post could be any more over dramatic unless you also said Post-Crisis DC broke into your home, beat your mother, and stole your Silver/Bronze Age comic collection.

[batman_pwns]

Total agreement with all points. It was a bad idea from the get-go.

Why should anyone respect a company that doesn't respect itself? The Silver and Bronze Age Superman books were the biggest books DC ever had, yet a few Marvel guys came over and convinced them to not only dump that version of Superman, but to push the idea that he was stupid. That's part of why Marvel will always be #1-they're proud of who they are, of their history, and they stay true to themselves. Who wants to read a wannabe Marvel comic if you can read the real thing? And it's been so long now that DC couldn't even rediscover who they really are, so they will always be Marvel lite.

How much does Marvel pay you to troll for them? If you aren't getting paid to be a blind troll, then the joke is on you.

I just had to laugh at "Marvel is proud of their history." Yeah, they're so proud they erased 20 years of Spidey's history with OMD. So proud indeed.

[Jake V]

Total agreement with all points. It was a bad idea from the get-go.

Why should anyone respect a company that doesn't respect itself? The Silver and Bronze Age Superman books were the biggest books DC ever had, yet a few Marvel guys came over and convinced them to not only dump that version of Superman, but to push the idea that he was stupid. That's part of why Marvel will always be #1-they're proud of who they are, of their history, and they stay true to themselves. Who wants to read a wannabe Marvel comic if you can read the real thing? And it's been so long now that DC couldn't even rediscover who they really are, so they will always be Marvel lite.

What Marvel guys are you talking about?

[Sacred Knight]

Only difference between Marvel and DC in the retcon category is that Marvel doesn't do it all at once like DC likes to do. And that's not a shot at either company. That's just the facts. Both erase and change their histories, Marvel's just never done the whole smash all at once starting from scratch. And trying different things in terms of updating for the ever changing and ever evolving eras of each generation, is not a signal of shame in one's past. I'm sure both companies and the talent within them take pride in the produce. Random internet guys with an axe to grind aren't really qualified to try and make claims against something like pride in one's work.

[Stanlos]

I think the Death of Superman really did it because it was the launch of stunt format that took over thereafter. Story from that point onward took a back seat and things shifte to the marketing event driven sales focused format that we now live in. Oversaturation and Fonzy in swim trunks and a leather jacket on skis from that point onward.

[ascended]

I think I have to say that around the time Birthright became canon is when things started to go downhill.

Now, post-Death, the line was really humming for me for several years. Many of my favorite moments came during that period and I loved the creative teams, the expanding supporting cast (John Henry, Superboy, more folks at the Planet, ect) but around 98 or so it started to founder. The supporting cast got too big, there was little to no drive for the stories, and the line had no direction.

In the early 2000's things started looking up again. Loeb was really hit or miss with me, Our Worlds At War was amazing, but his attempts to return the Silver Age Krypton were some of the worst stuff I had read at that point. Still, I enjoyed those days and Ed McGuiness on art was worth the price of admission alone. Things werent as good as they had been during the early to mid 90's, but they were far better than the late 90's.

But by the time Birthright became canon, things were falling apart again. I had hoped that it would be a short fall into mediocrity, as the previous dip had (more or less) been, but it wasnt. Things just kept spiraling out of control and before long I was wishing for mediocre, it would have been an improvement.

Eight years later, with things like Grounded and WoNK, I cant say the Superman line was any better at all before the relaunch. Hell, the only saving grace right now is Action Comics.

[Mat001]

It's hard to say for me, because in so many respects, as the saying goes, I wouldn't start from here.

COIE's conclusion was a mistake. Abandoning the multiverse was a terrible idea.

For me post crisis Superman was irredeemably broken from the get go. Only a hard reboot could fix this.

Anything that amounted to tinkering around the edges in terms of a soft reboot, and the 1990 engagement was all that, wasn't going to do it. Silver age Mythos began making a welcome return around this point, but it didn't fix the core personality traits that had been screwed up by Man of Steel.

Killing Superman - ie revisiting a Silver Age idea was a very creative period, a happy accident, because they couldn't do the 'marriage' another silver age "imaginary story" idea, so given the options it was around the time of the marriage things went wrong.

Evidence the Superman 2000 proposal of 1998, which would have undone the marriage.

But simply stealing from the silver age isn't a guarantee for success as the execution of Superman Red and Superman Blue demonstrates.

That wasn't what the writers were doing in the Post Crisis era. They were telling new stories without the old hook of it being an "Imaginary Tale". Superman's death was an important factor in numerous stories starting with the Superman titles, which affected the whole cast and spread out to Green Lantern which lead to numerous tales that continue to reverberate today. And the marriage wasn't a gimmick. It was meant to be a permanent deal which is why the "Superman 2000" proposal was nixed by editorial, since they had gone through the trouble of saying that this was not going to be undone two months later. And if you knew anything about the origins of that story, then you'd know that Jerry Ordway and Mike Carlin both had the characters best interest at heart.