Are Spider-Man's multiple romantic interests an issue for the franchise?

[Chuckles]

I think there's a lot of revisionism (in general) regarding mainstream awareness of Mary Jane prior to Raimi's Spider-Man.

[Kevinroc]

I think there's a lot of revisionism (in general) regarding mainstream awareness of Mary Jane prior to Raimi's Spider-Man.

Sure. But she was the main love interest in the incredibly popular 1990s animated series. (Raimi seemed at least aware of that series since he lifted Venom's origin from it.)

[Chuckles]

I don't think the 90s animated series was popular enough to have the kind of effect we're talking about here. I just don't see there being enough tradition for mainstream audiences to care.

[Kevinroc]

I don't think the 90s animated series was popular enough to have the kind of effect we're talking about here. I just don't see there being enough tradition for mainstream audiences to care.

Fair enough. But it's hard to imagine somewhere down the line we'll ever see a Spider-Man film where Deb Whitman or Carlie Cooper is the primary love interest.

[Mister Mets]

Superman 3 bombed because the theatrical version of Superman II was a mess. It's that effect that is the most dangerous to Spider-Man's possible success.

Superman 2 was a bit of a mess, but it was still a good movie with 88% critics support on rotten tomatoes, compared to 24% for Superman 3. IMDB users were a bit less generous, giving Superman 2 an average grade of 6.7, although that was still much better than Superman 3's average grade of 4.8. The films also came out at a time when the opening week box office was not as important, meaning the typical audience member would have more time to figure out if a film is up his alley.

Superman 3 also had really unimpressive villains, with second-billing going to Richard Pryor for playing a bumbler Superman teamed up with. The first two featured Lex Luthor and Zod.

We can both agree that Superman 3 had a minimal effect on how people saw Superman and Lois Lane's relationship.

The movies definitely play up the romantic aspects of it, and I guess I can see where you're coming from. Peter's pursuit of Mary Jane was a big part of the first three movies. His pursuit of Gwen seems to be a major factor in this one. But assuming people like Kevin and I are right, it's kind of a moot point, since they'll kill her next movie. The only way this I think becomes an issues is if they DON'T do that. Possible confusing or shipping wars may commence if we get two Spider-Man movie trilogies with two completely different women who both are a major focus of the plots.

Even if they kill off Gwen, it's not certain that the Andrew Garfield Peter Parker will end up with Mary Jane. Though there's a strong possibility of that.

It'll be interesting to see if the Amazing Spider-Man movies have a Dark Knight Rises, billed as the end of the saga. That could help cement the audience's impression of how the story is supposed to end.

For all avi arad's talk about Gwen being the true love, it seems weird they merge aspects of MJ with Gwenn's character going by the trailers, or at least the fact she knows apeter is spiderman already

They did the same thing with Mary Jane in the original films. You could also argue that the Doctor Octopus of Spider-Man 2, was more of a composite of several villains.

[Kevinroc]

I don't think the public sees the Nolan Batman films as the be-all, end-all encapsulation of Batman. (For one thing, these films don't have Robin in them. Robin is a major part of the Batman narrative.)

[David Walton]

Superman II is an awesome movie. Superman III went an entirely different direction, focusing on comedy over action. And failed comedy at that.

I'm going to be sad to see a Spider-Man movie without Bruce Campbell!

[Hypestyle]

have Betty, Deb Whitman, Carlie Cooper be classmates..

[stewart48]

I think there's a lot of revisionism (in general) regarding mainstream awareness of Mary Jane prior to Raimi's Spider-Man.

I'd agree there is an over exaggeration of MJ's popularity but she was pretty well known prior to Sam Raimi's movies

I'd always heard weed references regarding MJ and spider-man so they were out there late 80s at least, though I didn't quite get them at the time. Some of it might have come from the huge media event that came with spidey's wedding to MJ at Shae Stadium, a nationally publicized event when nearly everyone read the paper and not nearly as many options on the TV during the evening news.

My mom knew and she was generally clueless about this stuff, she was the homecoming queen type pretty far removed from all comic related stuff, which is why I considered her a known mainstream character Small sample I know but she is pretty clueless about anything not found her shopping catalogues.

Also your forgetting a lot more people once read comicbooks prior to the 90s and also a lot of people around the mid 90s knew her as his main love interests from the cartoons.

She isnt a front and center character when some people think of spiderman like Lois Lane is with superman, but She's really one of those characters that people know about peripherally because of spiderman, where as Lois Lane was always the front and center love interests. That's why most people aren't going to get hung up on MJ not being in the movie, but will have the passing question of where is she.

[Xenon]

I don't think the 90s animated series was popular enough to have the kind of effect we're talking about here. I just don't see there being enough tradition for mainstream audiences to care.

I think I disagree with you pretty mightily there. That show was the defining Spider-Man material for me and I'd argue most of my generation, at least until the movies came out. But it was on the air for several years suggesting it had decent ratings, it had a huge toy push, rode the success of Batman and X-Men, and if you look around the internet you'll see plenty of examples of non-comic people referencing it. In a...less than positive appearance, Doug Walker mentioned it in one of his videos, though I think it was of nostalgic shows that he just didn't like.

Superman 2 was a bit of a mess, but it was still a good movie with 88% critics support on rotten tomatoes, compared to 24% for Superman 3. IMDB users were a bit less generous, giving Superman 2 an average grade of 6.7, although that was still much better than Superman 3's average grade of 4.8. The films also came out at a time when the opening week box office was not as important, meaning the typical audience member would have more time to figure out if a film is up his alley.

Superman 3 also had really unimpressive villains, with second-billing going to Richard Pryor for playing a bumbler Superman teamed up with. The first two featured Lex Luthor and Zod.

I said Superman 2 was a mess, I didn't say Superman 3 was good. =p

Even if they kill off Gwen, it's not certain that the Andrew Garfield Peter Parker will end up with Mary Jane. Though there's a strong possibility of that.

It'll be interesting to see if the Amazing Spider-Man movies have a Dark Knight Rises, billed as the end of the saga. That could help cement the audience's impression of how the story is supposed to end.

Very much so. I very much think they're aping the Nolan Batman films, but it's possible they may want to milk it further than just three movies. But it makes a lot of sense. It's very hard to keep actors in place for more than three or four movies. Harry Potter did it, but that was both mighty impressive and a case where the people getting older was a natural part of the story anyway. Keeping people in their 20s is like the hardest thing to do over multiple movies, cause they're too old for growing up stories, but they're too young for additional aging to not be that noticeable.

They did the same thing with Mary Jane in the original films. You could also argue that the Doctor Octopus of Spider-Man 2, was more of a composite of several villains.

I don't see the Octopus thing. They changed him, sure, but not sure he's much of a composite. As for Gwen, ehhhhh....I've said before, it's hard to get Gwen wrong because she's developed in so few areas, but I wouldn't consider "knowing Peter is Spider-Man" to be a Mary Jane trait. Hell, Black Cat was the first person to actually know in real world time.

[Kevinroc]

The problem with this subject is the Spider-Man franchise isn't going to be like the James Bond series where every movie (or series of movies) is going to have a new love interest. The odds are against next series of movies focusing on Betty Brant as the primary love interest.

[Xenon]

The problem with this subject is the Spider-Man franchise isn't going to be like the James Bond series where every movie (or series of movies) is going to have a new love interest. The odds are against next series of movies focusing on Betty Brant as the primary love interest.

Right. That's kinda the point I was getting at with the first post. Mary Jane is the default, Gwen if you're feeling like doing something different. MAYBE Betty or Felicia if you want to have the love interest crash and burn for real and get replaced by Mary Jane or Gwen. Those are the four. Deb could play a role similar to Gwen in Spider-Man 3, I guess. But that's it. Not a series of new women for each movie/series.

[Kevinroc]

Right. That's kinda the point I was getting at with the first post. Mary Jane is the default, Gwen if you're feeling like doing something different. MAYBE Betty or Felicia if you want to have the love interest crash and burn for real and get replaced by Mary Jane or Gwen. Those are the four. Deb could play a role similar to Gwen in Spider-Man 3, I guess. But that's it. Not a series of new women for each movie/series.

Exactly. They want to make movies that will excite the fanbase and appeal to a mass audience. It essentially turns into a "Gwen or Mary Jane" debate because these are the two most prominent and popular love interests that a movie (or a couple of movies) can be built around (Felicia is incredibly popular but she also has far too many problems that would preclude her from working, unless the production team really rewrites her and Peter and risks angering the hardcore fanbase. But as they want to appeal to the hardcore Spider-Man fan, I don't see that happening).

And I don't think it's a stretch to say these new movies are setting Gwen up to die. Make her as likable as possible and then kill her. Because that's how her character is perceived by the fanbase.

[Menshevik]

Shed's fantastic. It's been praised in a few circles. Comics Alliance was particularly pleased with it.

I'll take your word for it, if you mean "fantastic for a post-OMD story involving a little boy being eaten by his father". Which is too far from my own tastes to be less than subjective about. BTW, what is the Black Cat's role in there and in what way does it indicate that she and Peter are suitable romantic love interests rather than partners in anonymous sex?

The conclusion of the Owl/ Octopus war made one Top 25 list as well as one more top ten list.

Out of how many hundreds of such lists?

Pretty much every romantic interest has been in at least a few bad stories. Mary Jane has more than most, although that's largely due to the length of her tenure.

But were they as bad as the two I mentioned or, dare I mention it, Sins Past? (Which, to be fair, also did not reflect well on MJ).

You do bring a few good points, that a few of Spider-Man's girlfriends are essentially interchangeable and that we don't really know where the new movie series is going.

Yes, you can say that Gwen was Betty Mk. 2 (apart from her appearance and speech patterns later being modeled on MJ), and in many ways Debra was Mk. 4 (counting the clone as Mk. 3 ). Gwen certainly repeated Betty's general pattern (positive feelings towards Peter, negative ones towards Spider-Man) and a few of her plots (blaming the death of a very close relative on Spider-Man, the way she reacted to seeing him unmasked).

I think one has to look at the role the character in question plays in the stories in which they appear, and here many of the Silver and Bronze Age love interests were extremely passive, appearing mainly as the focus of Peter's romantic feelings (which enhances their interchangeability), but not actually doing all that much. Also one has to see how what they do or don't do reflects on their relationships with Peter/Spidey.

[Mister Mets]

I don't think the public sees the Nolan Batman films as the be-all, end-all encapsulation of Batman. (For one thing, these films don't have Robin in them. Robin is a major part of the Batman narrative.)

I think an official film ending to Spider-Man's story would affect the perceptions about the character more than Dark Knight Rises. Batman's been rebooted a lot more, and his best-regarded comic book story is the one in which he comes out of retirement. There have also been more imaginary stories about Bruce Wayne's possibe futures.

I'll take your word for it, if you mean "fantastic for a post-OMD story involving a little boy being eaten by his father". Which is too far from my own tastes to be less than subjective about. BTW, what is the Black Cat's role in there and in what way does it indicate that she and Peter are suitable romantic love interests rather than partners in anonymous sex?

Black Cat contributes to Spider-Man's bad day.

Out of how many hundreds of such lists?

There actually aren't all that many.

But were they as bad as the two I mentioned or, dare I mention it, Sins Past? (Which, to be fair, also did not reflect well on MJ).

MJ has the worst of the Clone Saga, as well as the first year of the Mackie relaunch.

Yes, you can say that Gwen was Betty Mk. 2 (apart from her appearance and speech patterns later being modeled on MJ), and in many ways Debra was Mk. 4 (counting the clone as Mk. 3 ). Gwen certainly repeated Betty's general pattern (positive feelings towards Peter, negative ones towards Spider-Man) and a few of her plots (blaming the death of a very close relative on Spider-Man, the way she reacted to seeing him unmasked).

I think one has to look at the role the character in question plays in the stories in which they appear, and here many of the Silver and Bronze Age love interests were extremely passive, appearing mainly as the focus of Peter's romantic feelings (which enhances their interchangeability), but not actually doing all that much. Also one has to see how what they do or don't do reflects on their relationships with Peter/Spidey.

Gwen seemed a bit more fun than Betty. And Peter did pick her over MJ.