Why is Marvel making Tony Stark the fall guy?

[TonyStark1012]

They did it very quickly, I remember reading marvel titles afterwards and New York showed no scars. It should be noted also that some of the damaged was caused when Tony launched missiles at the Hulk in an attempt to kill him.

But we've gone over this and over this, again only the other side has goons. You'll always see Tony as the hero and I'll always see him as the semi-supervillain, the kind of hero to whom betrayal is an easy thing and who always has a hidden agenda. That's how marvel wrote him and their (in my opinion) lame attempts at redeeming him have only hurt due to (in my opinion) casual and off handed way they've produced those issues. But in AvX it's Cyclops turn to get put through the shredder so Tony's not really at fault here. I guess we'll have to wait until the next big even to see Tony as the bad guy again.

Mark_S

First you said you didn't see where hulk did that much damage and now you're saying they cleaned it up very quickly. LOL! It was a group effort to clean it up. If he didn't do that much damaged they would have made a book dedicated to fixing it. You've got to make up your mind. You can go in a thread about him and I have admitted many times where Tony has done wrong, but when it's pointed out that other people have done wrong it's completely ignored. That's the difference.

[mikekerrIII]

Hulk destroyed the Madison Square Garden and turned it into a gladiator arena! And then his alien buds were running around breaking stuff.
And the ship blew up because of his bug friend who thought Hulk was getting soft, if i remember correctly.

How do things that happened as a result of his being angry over being kidnapped justify kidnapping him?

[mikekerrIII]

For a superhero, Hulk has spent an awful lot of time fighting superheroes:

Giant-Man
Hercules
the Fantastic Four
Silver Surfer
Iron Man
Thor
Namor
the Avengers
Spider-man
Havok
Beast
the Inhumans
Adam Warlock
Wolverine
the Defenders
Jack of Hearts
Stingray
Machine Man
Captain Marvel
3D Man
Sabra
the Soviet Super-Soldiers
the Rangers
Dr. Strange
X-Factor
Captain America
and probably damn near everybody else at some point.

You can build a list like that for most superheroes so it proves little

And inh ow many of those cases was the Hulk in the wrong? The first fight withh the FF is a classic example of Heroes simply overreacting, many of the others since follow the same pattern.

Hero attacking Hulk is more common than Hulk attacking Hero

[Sighphi]

How do things that happened as a result of his being angry over being kidnapped justify kidnapping him?

The fact that he does bad things as a result of being angry...

[Shellhead]

Am I wrong or have all of those heroes fought each other as well?

Mark_S

Sometimes. It's true that Marvel heroes often fought the first time they met, due to a misunderstanding. But that isn't really the case with the Hulk. Of that list, he has fought the following heroes on several occasions:

Hercules
the Fantastic Four
Silver Surfer
Iron Man
Thor
Namor
the Avengers
Wolverine
the Defenders
Machine Man
Dr. Strange

So those aren't misunderstandings, at least not after the first incident. Those are heroes who are protecting the general public from a rampaging monster. They know who the Hulk is, and he knows who they are. The rest of these heroes have gotten to know each other over the years, and up until Civil War and AvX, were getting along okay. The exception is Namor, who is a notorious jerk who invaded New York City with an army on several occasions.

[Mark_S]

First you said you didn't see where hulk did that much damage and now you're saying they cleaned it up very quickly. LOL! It was a group effort to clean it up. If he didn't do that much damaged they would have made a book dedicated to fixing it. You've got to make up your mind. You can go in a thread about him and I have admitted many times where Tony has done wrong, but when it's pointed out that other people have done wrong it's completely ignored. That's the difference.

Sorry, allow me to clarify.
I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, usually with the flimsiest of stories to justify that forgiveness. To tear Tony down and making the villain the Marvel writers seem to pull all that creative energy and time into one series or issue; to redeem him in my opinion they throw together an issue in an afternoon or maybe weekend. And often by the time they throw these issues out its too late for me. Anyone forgiving Tony after civil war is a very weak character to me. The plot was flawed without an in-comic explanation as to why a new list could've been drawn up.

With the Hulk you are quite right he does cause a lot of damage. But time and time again I see the same story line repeated. "We must destroy the Hulk he is a menace, we need the Hulk to fight the menace that is greater than him, the menace is defeated we must destroy the Hulk because he is a menace." It's a game that Marvel plays much as they play with the X-Men being persecuted but still being avengers at times. It's also a bit of a game that they routinely destroy New York City and seldom show the consequences of that.
Truthfully it's gotten to the point for me when New York is become the city of Townsville, destroyed and rebuilt so much that you wonder any of the original city is still there. Leveling a bit of New York is like death in comics: it doesn't matter.
Mark_S.
(dictated to Dragon software)

[marvell2100]

My point is that Tony Stark has caused as many problems as the Hulk has.

Not even close. Hulk has done far more problems and damage.

[TonyStark1012]

Sorry, allow me to clarify.
I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, usually with the flimsiest of stories to justify that forgiveness. To tear Tony down and making the villain the Marvel writers seem to pull all that creative energy and time into one series or issue; to redeem him in my opinion they throw together an issue in an afternoon or maybe weekend. And often by the time they throw these issues out its too late for me. Anyone forgiving Tony after civil war is a very weak character to me. The plot was flawed without an in-comic explanation as to why a new list could've been drawn up.

With the Hulk you are quite right he does cause a lot of damage. But time and time again I see the same story line repeated. "We must destroy the Hulk he is a menace, we need the Hulk to fight the menace that is greater than him, the menace is defeated we must destroy the Hulk because he is a menace." It's a game that Marvel plays much as they play with the X-Men being persecuted but still being avengers at times. It's also a bit of a game that they routinely destroy New York City and seldom show the consequences of that.
Truthfully it's gotten to the point for me when New York is become the city of Townsville, destroyed and rebuilt so much that you wonder any of the original city is still there. Leveling a bit of New York is like death in comics: it doesn't matter.
Mark_S.
(dictated to Dragon software)

But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.

[CMBMOOL]

But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.

I hate to get involved in this discussion, but Tony only apologized when it was Bendis who wrote the character. It was Fraction in my opinion who dropped the ball on that one and had him regress back into his former ways.

[TonyStark1012]

I hate to get involved in this discussion, but Tony only apologized when it was Bendis who wrote the character. It was Fraction in my opinion who dropped the ball on that one and had him regress back into his former ways.

He still apologized. That's what people wanted and that's what they got..

[Lascoden]

He still apologized. That's what people wanted and that's what they got..

Doesn't it ring hollow when they say "I'm sorry. I'd do it all over again, but I feel real bad about it".

[Mark_S]

But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.

I don't remember him apologizing. Not in world war Hulk anyway, nor did he apologize to Thor. You are right in that I am focusing on a small story arc, and he had a lot of history before that arc. However that storyline is the basis of the modern Tony Stark character. That storyline is how Marvel writers see Tony Stark. Manipulative, driven and often times very callous. A man who borders on megalomania. The guy who will make the "tough choices" no matter who gets hurt. They believe that as long as he has guilt issues afterwards then all is forgiven and forgotten. It isn't. At least it isn't by me.
Now if it were relevant I would concentrate on is say Tony's first battle with Modok or his first meeting with the controller or battles with the blood Brothers; but none of that is relevant to the character now. What is relevant to the character now is the Civil War, dark reign, secret invasion, illuminati storylines. Those have built the character of Tony Stark in the modern Marvel universe. At least to me they have.
Mark_S
(dictated to Dragon software)

[xheight]

Sorry, allow me to clarify.
I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, (dictated to Dragon software)

well I am not so sure about forgiving him is exactly what happens as Iron Man and Tony remains an extended metaphor of American Power and its critique thus its slam on the unilateral paternalistic managment style. Otherwise I totally agree that is where they have taken him with the added conscience that now borders on technophobia.