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  1. #196
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    They did it very quickly, I remember reading marvel titles afterwards and New York showed no scars. It should be noted also that some of the damaged was caused when Tony launched missiles at the Hulk in an attempt to kill him.

    But we've gone over this and over this, again only the other side has goons. You'll always see Tony as the hero and I'll always see him as the semi-supervillain, the kind of hero to whom betrayal is an easy thing and who always has a hidden agenda. That's how marvel wrote him and their (in my opinion) lame attempts at redeeming him have only hurt due to (in my opinion) casual and off handed way they've produced those issues. But in AvX it's Cyclops turn to get put through the shredder so Tony's not really at fault here. I guess we'll have to wait until the next big even to see Tony as the bad guy again.

    Mark_S
    First you said you didn't see where hulk did that much damage and now you're saying they cleaned it up very quickly. LOL! It was a group effort to clean it up. If he didn't do that much damaged they would have made a book dedicated to fixing it. You've got to make up your mind. You can go in a thread about him and I have admitted many times where Tony has done wrong, but when it's pointed out that other people have done wrong it's completely ignored. That's the difference.
    Last edited by TonyStark1012; 06-19-2012 at 07:02 PM.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  2. #197
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Hulk destroyed the Madison Square Garden and turned it into a gladiator arena! And then his alien buds were running around breaking stuff.
    And the ship blew up because of his bug friend who thought Hulk was getting soft, if i remember correctly.
    How do things that happened as a result of his being angry over being kidnapped justify kidnapping him?
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  3. #198
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    For a superhero, Hulk has spent an awful lot of time fighting superheroes:

    Giant-Man
    Hercules
    the Fantastic Four
    Silver Surfer
    Iron Man
    Thor
    Namor
    the Avengers
    Spider-man
    Havok
    Beast
    the Inhumans
    Adam Warlock
    Wolverine
    the Defenders
    Jack of Hearts
    Stingray
    Machine Man
    Captain Marvel
    3D Man
    Sabra
    the Soviet Super-Soldiers
    the Rangers
    Dr. Strange
    X-Factor
    Captain America
    and probably damn near everybody else at some point.
    You can build a list like that for most superheroes so it proves little

    And inh ow many of those cases was the Hulk in the wrong? The first fight withh the FF is a classic example of Heroes simply overreacting, many of the others since follow the same pattern.

    Hero attacking Hulk is more common than Hulk attacking Hero
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  4. #199
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    How do things that happened as a result of his being angry over being kidnapped justify kidnapping him?
    The fact that he does bad things as a result of being angry...

  5. #200
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Am I wrong or have all of those heroes fought each other as well?

    Mark_S
    Sometimes. It's true that Marvel heroes often fought the first time they met, due to a misunderstanding. But that isn't really the case with the Hulk. Of that list, he has fought the following heroes on several occasions:

    Hercules
    the Fantastic Four
    Silver Surfer
    Iron Man
    Thor
    Namor
    the Avengers
    Wolverine
    the Defenders
    Machine Man
    Dr. Strange

    So those aren't misunderstandings, at least not after the first incident. Those are heroes who are protecting the general public from a rampaging monster. They know who the Hulk is, and he knows who they are. The rest of these heroes have gotten to know each other over the years, and up until Civil War and AvX, were getting along okay. The exception is Namor, who is a notorious jerk who invaded New York City with an army on several occasions.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

  6. #201
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    First you said you didn't see where hulk did that much damage and now you're saying they cleaned it up very quickly. LOL! It was a group effort to clean it up. If he didn't do that much damaged they would have made a book dedicated to fixing it. You've got to make up your mind. You can go in a thread about him and I have admitted many times where Tony has done wrong, but when it's pointed out that other people have done wrong it's completely ignored. That's the difference.
    Sorry, allow me to clarify.
    I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, usually with the flimsiest of stories to justify that forgiveness. To tear Tony down and making the villain the Marvel writers seem to pull all that creative energy and time into one series or issue; to redeem him in my opinion they throw together an issue in an afternoon or maybe weekend. And often by the time they throw these issues out its too late for me. Anyone forgiving Tony after civil war is a very weak character to me. The plot was flawed without an in-comic explanation as to why a new list could've been drawn up.

    With the Hulk you are quite right he does cause a lot of damage. But time and time again I see the same story line repeated. "We must destroy the Hulk he is a menace, we need the Hulk to fight the menace that is greater than him, the menace is defeated we must destroy the Hulk because he is a menace." It's a game that Marvel plays much as they play with the X-Men being persecuted but still being avengers at times. It's also a bit of a game that they routinely destroy New York City and seldom show the consequences of that.
    Truthfully it's gotten to the point for me when New York is become the city of Townsville, destroyed and rebuilt so much that you wonder any of the original city is still there. Leveling a bit of New York is like death in comics: it doesn't matter.
    Mark_S.
    (dictated to Dragon software)

  7. #202
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    My point is that Tony Stark has caused as many problems as the Hulk has.
    Not even close. Hulk has done far more problems and damage.
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  8. #203
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Sorry, allow me to clarify.
    I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, usually with the flimsiest of stories to justify that forgiveness. To tear Tony down and making the villain the Marvel writers seem to pull all that creative energy and time into one series or issue; to redeem him in my opinion they throw together an issue in an afternoon or maybe weekend. And often by the time they throw these issues out its too late for me. Anyone forgiving Tony after civil war is a very weak character to me. The plot was flawed without an in-comic explanation as to why a new list could've been drawn up.

    With the Hulk you are quite right he does cause a lot of damage. But time and time again I see the same story line repeated. "We must destroy the Hulk he is a menace, we need the Hulk to fight the menace that is greater than him, the menace is defeated we must destroy the Hulk because he is a menace." It's a game that Marvel plays much as they play with the X-Men being persecuted but still being avengers at times. It's also a bit of a game that they routinely destroy New York City and seldom show the consequences of that.
    Truthfully it's gotten to the point for me when New York is become the city of Townsville, destroyed and rebuilt so much that you wonder any of the original city is still there. Leveling a bit of New York is like death in comics: it doesn't matter.
    Mark_S.
    (dictated to Dragon software)
    But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  9. #204
    Elder Member CMBMOOL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.
    I hate to get involved in this discussion, but Tony only apologized when it was Bendis who wrote the character. It was Fraction in my opinion who dropped the ball on that one and had him regress back into his former ways.

  10. #205
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMBMOOL View Post
    I hate to get involved in this discussion, but Tony only apologized when it was Bendis who wrote the character. It was Fraction in my opinion who dropped the ball on that one and had him regress back into his former ways.
    He still apologized. That's what people wanted and that's what they got..
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  11. #206
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    He still apologized. That's what people wanted and that's what they got..
    Doesn't it ring hollow when they say "I'm sorry. I'd do it all over again, but I feel real bad about it".

  12. #207
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    But that is my point. You wanted Tony to apologize and you got one. There is more to the character than a story that took place six years ago. That is my point. Tony has had stories told about him since 1963 and you continually focus on an 8 issue event. That is someone not looking at the whole picture.
    I don't remember him apologizing. Not in world war Hulk anyway, nor did he apologize to Thor. You are right in that I am focusing on a small story arc, and he had a lot of history before that arc. However that storyline is the basis of the modern Tony Stark character. That storyline is how Marvel writers see Tony Stark. Manipulative, driven and often times very callous. A man who borders on megalomania. The guy who will make the "tough choices" no matter who gets hurt. They believe that as long as he has guilt issues afterwards then all is forgiven and forgotten. It isn't. At least it isn't by me.
    Now if it were relevant I would concentrate on is say Tony's first battle with Modok or his first meeting with the controller or battles with the blood Brothers; but none of that is relevant to the character now. What is relevant to the character now is the Civil War, dark reign, secret invasion, illuminati storylines. Those have built the character of Tony Stark in the modern Marvel universe. At least to me they have.
    Mark_S
    (dictated to Dragon software)

  13. #208
    Member xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Sorry, allow me to clarify.
    I see Tony Stark, at least as he has been written since civil war, as a man who was he develops an agenda pursues that agenda:Period. Loyalty, trust, honor, the consequences that others may have to suffer… none of it matters to him once he has decided on a course of action. It is not that he is unwilling to suffer himself for this agenda, it is that he is willing to have everyone else suffer for this agenda as well. The ends justify the means, "I did it to save the planet", if you just listen to me everything will turn out all right. Basically as written Tony sees himself as the only adult in the room. To the Marvel writers this makes him a very interesting character, a man whose own hubris will always lead them to these heights and falls. Trouble is they tend to take it too far for dramatic effect. To me Tony's attitude is borderline super villain thinking. Thus I refer to him as a semi-super villain, a very successful one. No matter what Tony does, no matter how much pain he inflicts on others they always seem to forgive him, (dictated to Dragon software)
    well I am not so sure about forgiving him is exactly what happens as Iron Man and Tony remains an extended metaphor of American Power and its critique thus its slam on the unilateral paternalistic managment style. Otherwise I totally agree that is where they have taken him with the added conscience that now borders on technophobia.
    "The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us." (Paul Valery) - thus my blog In extremis

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