How similar is Snyder's current Owl run to Morrison's R.I.P.?

[Concept Coop]

How similar is Snyder's current Owl run to Morrison's R.I.P.?

I'm honestly not seeing it. Sure, both books host "secret societies" as villains - but they are not too similar, beyond that categorization. Their motives, back stories, characters, actions and plans are all very different. Is no future Batman writer able to use secret societies, because Morrison did?

The stories have a VERY different feel to me. I think those comparing the stories missed what Morrison was shooting for - and I don't mean that as an insult to Snyder. Morrison's took us much deeper inside the mind of Bruce Wayne; the fact that the enemy was a secret collection of villains and a - for a long time - unnamed evil is secondary to what took place in the mind of Bruce Wayne.

Snyder's story is much different, as the story takes place in a completely different setting: Gotham City; outside of Bruce Wayne, who acts as a hero alone, as opposed to the setting. This story is about the Court of Owls and eventually and potentially Thomas Wayne Jr. R.I.P. was a study of Bruce Wayne's entire life, to that point, and deeper than just that, even: what makes him, what could break him, and why.

I stole this, and can't remember where I read it, but: The Court is a "rip off" of The Black Glove, only as Batman is a rip off of Superman. That is to say, they are very different and unique to the other, despite both fitting under the same categories (caped heroes, secret societies).

Anyone suggesting the stories are the same, is missing a lot of what each writer intended and executed, in my opinion, especially Morrison.

[bat39]

I agree with you completely.

SPOILERS

There are a LOT of plot elements/tropes in common between the two stories. Not only is there the Secret Society that has targeted Bruce Wayne/Batman, but now you have a long-lost member of the Wayne family behind both conspiracies. Both stories show Batman at his worst; beaten down, drugged, disoriented, running blind...until he rises, fights back and emerges not only triumphant, but changed in many ways (hopefully for the better).

But Morrison and Snyder have totally different goals. Morrison's objective was to both deconstruct and reconstruct Batman-he had Batman spiritually destroyed only for him to be 'reborn' and fight the 'ultimate villain'. His purpose was to showcase Batman as the 'ultimate man' while at the same time reveal his vulnerabilities...in a sense, he was merely reinforcing the very core elements of the Batman mythos.
Snyder's story is more about Batman's relationship with Gotham City, and how the city has shaped his life and the lives of others in ways which he has never completely been able to appreciate...until now.

So both stories highlight distinct, albeit related, aspects of the Batman mythos, and the villains of both arcs exemplify their respective themes. Simon Hurt is the 'ultimate villain', a very dangerous, very devious foe who nearly defeated Batman through trickery and brute force; who taunted Batman about being the 'hole in things' and a 'missing piece of the puzzle'...but who at the end of the day was just another bad guy defeated by the 'ultimate hero' that is Batman. Thomas Wayne Jr. on the other hand represents a dark, unknown aspect of Bruce's past-and moreover is living testimony to the fact that Bruce has made a lot of assumptions about his family, his city and himself which are all crumbling down.

[cgh]

Well, one thing is for sure: Bruce must be really starting to wonder about his family. First we have the ancestor corrupted by the Hyper-Adapter, which was sent back in time to follow Bruce himself, which in turn led to said ancestor causing all sorts of problems leading into Final Crisis, which caused the Hyper-Adapter to go back in time...

Then we have another relative, with the same name, who also caused a lot of grief. I'll bet Bruce is thinking, "Okay, if Darkseid shows up, that's it, I'm hanging up the cowl, enough of this crap."

I wonder if Dr. Hurt/Old Thomas Wayne knew about Thomas Wayne Jr. Maybe Snyder will unravel the relationship between the two.

Or maybe the Old Thomas Wayne introduced the Hyper-Adapter to Thomas Wayne Jr.? That would be pretty awesome.

[Concept Coop]

Well, one thing is for sure: Bruce must be really starting to wonder about his family. First we have the ancestor corrupted by the Hyper-Adapter, which was sent back in time to follow Bruce himself, which in turn led to said ancestor causing all sorts of problems leading into Final Crisis, which caused the Hyper-Adapter to go back in time...

Then we have another relative, with the same name, who also caused a lot of grief. I'll bet Bruce is thinking, "Okay, if Darkseid shows up, that's it, I'm hanging up the cowl, enough of this crap."

I wonder if Dr. Hurt/Old Thomas Wayne knew about Thomas Wayne Jr. Maybe Snyder will unravel the relationship between the two.

Or maybe the Old Thomas Wayne introduced the Hyper-Adapter to Thomas Wayne Jr.? That would be pretty awesome.

So, what bothers you? Different Villains with the same name? Should Snyder have changed the name? - because they are clearly different characters; i.e. Snyder isn't copying Morrison.

The stories are clearly different.

[cgh]

So, what bothers you? Different Villains with the same name? Should Snyder have changed the name? - because they are clearly different characters; i.e. Snyder isn't copying Morrison.

The stories are clearly different.

Eh? Nothing bothers me. I love both stories. I was just pointing out that Bruce must be giving his head a serious shake right about now and thinking, "Okay, from devil-worshipper to crazy brother - I'm sure glad my own son is named Damian and not Thomas."

[bat39]

One has to admit that Batman's family sure looks...interesting...given recent revelations-

Thomas Wayne Jr.-brother(?)-insane, member of the Court of Owls
Thomas Wayne-ancestor-immortal personification of the 'Devil'
Dick Grayson-adopted son-groomed to be an assassin for the Court of Owls
Jason Todd-adopted son-killed in action, resurrected as a murderous anti-hero/gun-toting vigilante
Damian Wayne-biological son-result of an affair with Ras al Ghul's daughter; a trained killer since childhood

No wonder he's the closest to Alfred! And one wonders why he doesn't spend more time with Tim...

[GarageGlamorous]

One has to admit that Batman's family sure looks...interesting...given recent revelations-

Thomas Wayne Jr.-brother(?)-insane, member of the Court of Owls
Thomas Wayne-ancestor-immortal personification of the 'Devil'
Dick Grayson-adopted son-groomed to be an assassin for the Court of Owls
Jason Todd-adopted son-killed in action, resurrected as a murderous anti-hero/gun-toting vigilante
Damian Wayne-biological son-result of an affair with Ras al Ghul's daughter; a trained killer since childhood

No wonder he's the closest to Alfred! And one wonders why he doesn't spend more time with Tim...

Well, I mean, it is a comic book family. That sort of stuff comes naturally I suppose.

I see similarities, but each are different enough for it to not be a problem. The Black Glove was very psychological, whereas the Court just outright murders people they don't like, including Bruce.

Also keep in mind that nothing's confirmed yet about this alleged "Thomas Wayne Jr." person, he could just be trying to mess with Batman's head as most villains are wont to do. I actually hope he's just crazy, the plot twist came off as a bit tired to me. Everyone always has an evil sibling eventually, it's such a tired concept.

[Desaad]

They are only related in that some of the surface trappings are similar. But that could be said about any number of pieces of fiction over the years. Is Night of Owls, then, also a rip off of the Da Vinci code?

Of course not. The reality is that there are a finite number of possible elements for these types of stories, stories that seek to harry their antagonist. Secret societies are a dime a dozen, and using one's family against another is an easy way to hit them where they are vulnerable; this is especially true of Batman, who is very much defined by his family, the loss of that family, the building of a new family, etc.

No, in every way that matters these tales are different. They are different in scale and complexity, they are different in intent, they are different in theme, they are different in regards to the statement they are making about the characters and the world. It's been discussed here and elsewhere time and time again; Snyder's work is about turning all of Bruce's points of strength against him, especially in relation to his city, to show how strong he really is. Morrison does turn a lot of Bruce's strong points against him, but that wasn't the ultimate goal; his ultimate goal was to show that Bruce was, in fact, damaged all along, to destroy him, and then have him rebuild himself into something better, more functional, more balanced. Morrison employed many more subtextual elements and explored many more themes about Batman as a concept along the way. His book was more about Batman; Snyder's is more about Gotham, and Bruce.

But primarily, I would argue that where as Snyder's book is primarily rooted in the past, Morrison's book was looking to the future. I don't mean that as a criticism of Snyder's work, because it's not 'rooted to continuity' or 'rooted to unimportant minutae'. But it's a book about roots and origins, about foundations and blueprints. Morrison's Batman was about shedding the past and striding confidently forward into futures hellish and idyllic.

[Concept Coop]

It's odd that Snyder was ripped for copying Morrison's work in the issue review, but not in this thread.

I think people used a created likness as a reason to justify their dislike of Bruce potentially having a brother.

[TZDEKA]

One has to admit that Batman's family sure looks...interesting...given recent revelations-

Thomas Wayne Jr.-brother(?)-insane, member of the Court of Owls
Thomas Wayne-ancestor-immortal personification of the 'Devil'
Dick Grayson-adopted son-groomed to be an assassin for the Court of Owls
Jason Todd-adopted son-killed in action, resurrected as a murderous anti-hero/gun-toting vigilante
Damian Wayne-biological son-result of an affair with Ras al Ghul's daughter; a trained killer since childhood

No wonder he's the closest to Alfred! And one wonders why he doesn't spend more time with Tim...

It seems pretty clear at this point that besides cursing Batman's old cowl, Hurt must have cursed the Thomas name as well. Thomas Waynes are particularly unlucky guys.

[paulski]

How similar is Snyder's current Owl run to Morrison's R.I.P.?

I'm honestly not seeing it.

I agree with you completely.

Oh, thank god, because I'd begun to think I was going balmy. All I'd seen was "bah, this is a ripoff of RIP!" when I really couldn't see many similarities at all myself. Nice to find I wasn't alone in my thinking.

[Godlike13]

I see people say it, but i don't see it myself.

[Jake V]

As much as I love R.I.P. I don't think it can claim ownership of the old "secret cabal of crime aristocrats conspires to kill the hero" thing.

[Judo Grip Batman]

I understand that the themes explored by each writer are different, but there is really way too much similarity in the plot beats for my liking. Secret society, Batman's mind being messed with, him going missing and his friends fussing over his whereabouts, an assault on the mansion, him coming back triumphant with the answers to the mystery...
And now, on top of all this, a villain who may or may not be his blood relative.
AND..he's teasing Batman about it, too, and Bruce is all in denial, gee...just like that scene at the end of R.I.P.

I mean, yes, the themes are different...but really, for a writer of Snyder's calibre, there had better be AT LEAST that much to separate his work from Grant's.

Here's hoping his next arc will be better and more original.

God...an evil twin brother for Batman...

[bat39]

They are only related in that some of the surface trappings are similar. But that could be said about any number of pieces of fiction over the years. Is Night of Owls, then, also a rip off of the Da Vinci code?

Of course not. The reality is that there are a finite number of possible elements for these types of stories, stories that seek to harry their antagonist. Secret societies are a dime a dozen, and using one's family against another is an easy way to hit them where they are vulnerable; this is especially true of Batman, who is very much defined by his family, the loss of that family, the building of a new family, etc.

No, in every way that matters these tales are different. They are different in scale and complexity, they are different in intent, they are different in theme, they are different in regards to the statement they are making about the characters and the world. It's been discussed here and elsewhere time and time again; Snyder's work is about turning all of Bruce's points of strength against him, especially in relation to his city, to show how strong he really is. Morrison does turn a lot of Bruce's strong points against him, but that wasn't the ultimate goal; his ultimate goal was to show that Bruce was, in fact, damaged all along, to destroy him, and then have him rebuild himself into something better, more functional, more balanced. Morrison employed many more subtextual elements and explored many more themes about Batman as a concept along the way. His book was more about Batman; Snyder's is more about Gotham, and Bruce.

But primarily, I would argue that where as Snyder's book is primarily rooted in the past, Morrison's book was looking to the future. I don't mean that as a criticism of Snyder's work, because it's not 'rooted to continuity' or 'rooted to unimportant minutae'. But it's a book about roots and origins, about foundations and blueprints. Morrison's Batman was about shedding the past and striding confidently forward into futures hellish and idyllic.

Yeah, I agree...that's a perfect description of the fundamental difference between the two arcs!