So what were the 'clues'? (re 'the shocking reveal')

[adkal]

9 months ain't a long time. Both the in-universe timeline and the out of universe amount of time this story has been told hasn't been enough to say "Anything not in these nine issues can't be true".

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

:)

[Dr. Hurt]

Nah, he's an El.


(sorry, bad joke)

Hehe, i liked it!

I bet if Snyder wrote Superman, he'd have Krypton be blown up by the Court of Ultras.

I'm sure he would!

[hunter_peterson]

There are a couple clues, but they're not super obvious or really helpful. I think we DID see that portrait before, in the first issue, maybe? I think it was backgrounded when the Robins were greeting Bruce. (I don't remember and don't want to have to rotate my computer screen to reread those issues.) And there is the similarity of appearance and the "owls loose in the house of Wayne" thing.

I don't see why people are being weird about the pregnancy.

1: Bruce was three and was involved in a traumatic incident, probably involving concussion, so his memories being hazy makes sense.
2: Martha's pregnancy was public knowledge, but it is implied that it was publicly assumed she'd miscarried due to the car crash. And, as much as it doesn't hold true for those close to it, miscarriage isn't considered death by the general public. It's generally viewed as injury to the woman. In this case, once the car crash news faded (which would have been quickly), it would have slipped out of public consciousness. It's sadly unlikely that anybody would care, certainly not in the wake of the tragic death of the couple. Old news is no news.
3: The back-up story is basically an explanation for why Alfred never knew about Junior to tell Bruce. Jarvis was the one who knew about the pregnancy, but both he and the Waynes died before Alfred could be informed of the full situation.
4: The Court of Owls scrubbed Junior from the public record, so no medical certificates or birth certificates would have survived. Not to mention that Thomas was a doctor and may have done much of Martha's checkups and such himself.
5: Bruce could have been fully aware of his mother's past pregnancy but have thought she miscarried (which Junior says she basically did, but he was saved) or could have simply not comprehended it as a three year old well enough to recognize it later. Both are equally plausible and don't reflect on Bruce negatively in terms of deductive skill, ESPECIALLY as he did most of his investigations as an eight year old.
6: If the baby was supposed to be dead, it needn't be placed next to the parents. For all we know, there's a child section in the Wayne graveyard that has a tiny casket with T.W (J) on it and no year. Bruce might not be aware of that, because why WOULD he be?

The main problem of the story that makes the reveal underwhelming is the fact that no sibling was meaningfully foreshadowed in any real way AT ALL. Sure, the imagery lines up, owls and whatnot, but that isn't enough to justify such a reveal. I mean, I personally knew about Owlman enough to appreciate the meta-logic, but a lot of people wouldn't have. Continuity isn't foreshadowing. That Snyder would attempt to use it as such is more bizarre in light of this being the opening arc after a line-wide reboot. There IS NO continuity to nod towards this.

Of course, I could have just missed the clues to this. When they solicit a Court of Owls Deluxe Hardcover, I'll reread it with great scrutiny. (I refuse to buy a part one/two deal for this single story... they should have just waited for the whole thing to be ready.)

[adkal]

There are a couple clues, but they're not super obvious or really helpful. I think we DID see that portrait before, in the first issue, maybe? I think it was backgrounded when the Robins were greeting Bruce. (I don't remember and don't want to have to rotate my computer screen to reread those issues.) And there is the similarity of appearance and the "owls loose in the house of Wayne" thing.

I'll try to take a look later, was away until Monday night.

I don't see why people are being weird about the pregnancy.

1: Bruce was three and was involved in a traumatic incident, probably involving concussion, so his memories being hazy makes sense.

This bit isn't an issue for me.

2: Martha's pregnancy was public knowledge, but it is implied that it was publicly assumed she'd miscarried due to the car crash.

This doesn't hold up, though, as they admitted TWJ to Willowwood. So there's no miscarriage - once healed, he would have 'come back' to the family. It's also why she was wearing the pin in the first place, according to March.

And, as much as it doesn't hold true for those close to it, miscarriage isn't considered death by the general public. It's generally viewed as injury to the woman. In this case, once the car crash news faded (which would have been quickly), it would have slipped out of public consciousness. It's sadly unlikely that anybody would care, certainly not in the wake of the tragic death of the couple. Old news is no news.

It would have come up in at least one obit, especially a detailed one given by the Wayne Foundation (or whatever the name was when Thomas and Martha were alive).

3: The back-up story is basically an explanation for why Alfred never knew about Junior to tell Bruce. Jarvis was the one who knew about the pregnancy, but both he and the Waynes died before Alfred could be informed of the full situation.

They had at least 5 years to even pass a mention of it, and there would have been photos etc from the period of the pregnancy still in existence. Alfred likely would have come across them when going through their personal effects after the murders.

4: The Court of Owls scrubbed Junior from the public record, so no medical certificates or birth certificates would have survived.

But aspects of the pregnancy, etc, would have. That's the point - Bruce would have found out in the 30 years since the accident.

Not to mention that Thomas was a doctor and may have done much of Martha's checkups and such himself.

Thomas was an OB/GYN? Since when?

One of my best friends is a paediatrician but his wife (also a doctor, as is her father) was attended to by an OB/GYN. Thomas certainly hasn't come across as that much of a recluse that he'd do it himself (an emergency situation, of course, is different).

5: Bruce could have been fully aware of his mother's past pregnancy but have thought she miscarried (which Junior says she basically did, but he was saved) or could have simply not comprehended it as a three year old well enough to recognize it later. Both are equally plausible and don't reflect on Bruce negatively in terms of deductive skill, ESPECIALLY as he did most of his investigations as an eight year old.

According to March, the Waynes admitted him to Willowwood themselves to heal and recover. They were murdered before he was well enough to come home - which would mean he was there for 5 years...

6: If the baby was supposed to be dead, it needn't be placed next to the parents. For all we know, there's a child section in the Wayne graveyard that has a tiny casket with T.W (J) on it and no year. Bruce might not be aware of that, because why WOULD he be?

Because, in the 5 years since the accident, they would have told him about it...

The main problem of the story that makes the reveal underwhelming is the fact that no sibling was meaningfully foreshadowed in any real way AT ALL.

Exactly.

Sure, the imagery lines up, owls and whatnot, but that isn't enough to justify such a reveal. I mean, I personally knew about Owlman enough to appreciate the meta-logic, but a lot of people wouldn't have. Continuity isn't foreshadowing. That Snyder would attempt to use it as such is more bizarre in light of this being the opening arc after a line-wide reboot. There IS NO continuity to nod towards this.

Exactly.

Of course, I could have just missed the clues to this. When they solicit a Court of Owls Deluxe Hardcover, I'll reread it with great scrutiny. (I refuse to buy a part one/two deal for this single story... they should have just waited for the whole thing to be ready.)

So far, no one has posted any clues. They make reference to the old stories of TWJ and the Owlman situation and cite those as 'clues' but, in-story, that just doesn't work (in my opinion).

[Davidian]

Only explanation that I find possible, is that the Waynes left Thomas JR to heal in Willowood under a different name, in order for him not to be attacked or kidnapped by the Court / guys that were threatening Martha.

So for the public eye she miscarried, while they just were trying to protect their son while healing ?

[adkal]

Only explanation that I find possible, is that the Waynes left Thomas JR to heal in Willowood under a different name, in order for him not to be attacked or kidnapped by the Court / guys that were threatening Martha.

So for the public eye she miscarried, while they just were trying to protect their son while healing ?

And then? When he's healed?

'Oh, hey folks. um...sorry about the lie we told you earlier about Martha's miscarriage. Our son's life was under threat and we felt it best to keep it a secret that he survived. Sorry...what's that? Yes, unfortunately his life is still under threat (not sure why they're ignoring li'l Brucie, though, and they got our butler (he was the father of our current butler (it's a family thing))) but he's well enough for us to announce that...he's alive!'


If he died soon after being placed in Willowwood then that's something the Waynes would acknowledge. It's different to a miscarriage at that point.



What happened in the 5 years between the accident and the murders? According to March's rant, he was (apparently) still in Willowwood when the murders happened (and that it was Bruce's fault).


Willowwood collapsed less than 2 decades ago - this may be important further down the line or (as is probably the case) I'm grabbing on to things I shouldn't do (so to speak).

[Davidian]

And then? When he's healed?

'Oh, hey folks. um...sorry about the lie we told you earlier about Martha's miscarriage. Our son's life was under threat and we felt it best to keep it a secret that he survived. Sorry...what's that? Yes, unfortunately his life is still under threat (not sure why they're ignoring li'l Brucie, though, and they got our butler (he was the father of our current butler (it's a family thing))) but he's well enough for us to announce that...he's alive!'


If he died soon after being placed in Willowwood then that's something the Waynes would acknowledge. It's different to a miscarriage at that point.



What happened in the 5 years between the accident and the murders? According to March's rant, he was (apparently) still in Willowwood when the murders happened (and that it was Bruce's fault).


Willowwood collapsed less than 2 decades ago - this may be important further down the line or (as is probably the case) I'm grabbing on to things I shouldn't do (so to speak).

Emmm.. well... as no one but Jarvis and the Waynes knew... once Bruce´s parents die, there was no one aware of the existence of TWJR, Willowood got worse, and the court got TWJR out of there for some reason, maybe they found out who he was ?

The hypothesis Is quite logical actually xD but I don´t think they´ll play it this way

[adkal]

Emmm.. well... as no one but Jarvis and the Waynes knew... once Bruce´s parents die, there was no one aware of the existence of TWJR, Willowood got worse, and the court got TWJR out of there for some reason, maybe they found out who he was ?

The hypothesis Is quite logical actually xD but I don´t think they´ll play it this way

But the implication from that is that they didn't say a word to Bruce or Alfred (or anyone else (including the Kanes)) for 5 years.



Someone then blocked the funding (we don't know who the administrators of the Waynes' estate was) to Willowwood and the institute went downhill. A few years after that, it collapsed as a result of the sinkhole.


Again, too many contrivances - if the Waynes are primary contributors to Willowwood (implied) then, confidentiality or not, the board would have approached the Wayne estate since one of their patients is a Wayne heir. (So...was someone from the Court an administrator? Is that how they discovered Thomas had survived? It was 'granny', wasn't it?! )

[Davidian]

But the implication from that is that they didn't say a word to Bruce or Alfred (or anyone else (including the Kanes)) for 5 years.



Someone then blocked the funding (we don't know who the administrators of the Waynes' estate was) to Willowwood and the institute went downhill. A few years after that, it collapsed as a result of the sinkhole.


Again, too many contrivances - if the Waynes are primary contributors to Willowwood (implied) then, confidentiality or not, the board would have approached the Wayne estate since one of their patients is a Wayne heir. (So...was someone from the Court an administrator? Is that how they discovered Thomas had survived? It was 'granny', wasn't it?! )

Hehe well I still think it´s the most logical explanation they could give to all of this, we´ll see... maybe TWJR is the HyperOwlapter (? lol

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah maybe Flashpoint screwed up the Hyper Adapter's time travel.

[Darkspellmaster]

See what I don't get is why Synder didn't go for a simpler story then this whole convoluted thing if, what appears to be, his main goal is bringing Owlman (Thus maybe more of the group from the Evil twins of the JLA into new earth?) into this main continutity?

Here's the thing, so the wayne's don't tell their son that his mommy is pregent, or that his mommy lost the baby. When I was five and my mother did I do remember tellling me about that. I would think something that big would stick with Bruce, especially given the fact that his parents died. Wouldn't he later on want the baby's grave moved. I would also think, you know, pictures that shows his Mom being with child, and it seems really dumb that Alfred (Former MI6 guy) wouldn't look into any of this, or wouldn't at least look into the police records of the accident after his father is killed? I would think that he would want to after the death of the Waynes.

Honestly what could have worked better and been less of a problem and more plausable would have been if:

1. Martha is still pregent and Accident still happens.
2. They go to Willowood where she gives birth but then a doctor who is either working with the court, or is being paid by them realizes what he has here, and switches the child with a recently decesed baby. Thus the Waynes believe their son has died.
3. The child is put in to the March family who raise him, until he's older and then the Owls come in and take him from them.
4. They then educate the boy into thinking his parents abandoned him, and claim that they only wanted one son for an heir, thus establishing hatred of Bruce.
5. Lincoln then goes about doing his evil stick.

This could have easily given us a trail for the mystrey to come about by having clues in regard to maybe the doctor at Willowood having connections with the Owls and Bruce follows the trail and ultimately has his "brother" unearthed only to discover that the baby that the Waynes thought was their dead child was someone elses. Leading up to the whole reveal with Lincoln.

Now that I could have believed.