Fantastic Four #607 *Spoilers*

[Umbra]

Yeah. I think he got pawned. What do you call it when BP doesn't anticipate the Egyptian attack?

That's Pawned? Mystical beings? See this is what I mean, why would he be able to anticipate that? And isn't that proof that your "marry sue" doesn't work?

Plus,if you look at the scene, he looks like he knows something was going to happen. He looks at Reed and then his shoulders are lowered down, like he has a weight on his shoulders. It's magic, a very ancient kind. I don't see him being able to do that. Why?

He's not perfect, or beyond losing or being wrong. And he didn't get "pawned" ...he wasn't touched.

He did get knocked out in defenders, but that's ok. He just got knocked out. Like any other character could get knocked out.

[jackolover]

I doubt T'Challa minds that much, given the circumstances.

T'Challa frankly had a long history working with Doom in the past (shame Hudlin ended that), at least under Priest and Geoff. The fact that Doom had bad history with Reed (and really anyone else) never seemed to bother T'Challa. He's a practical guy. He'd do the same thing if it were necessary.

But given the fact that they are covering plot threads established in Doom War, and given that this is the writer who put Doom in the FF in the first place, if there's any place and any writer that would bring the issue up it would be here and now I guess.

I don't know if Hickman does confrontational literature. He tends to do historic. Hickman writes more like the "Prometheus" writers, in that it's more important to mention the progression of the plot, than to concentrate of the ego conflicts. It would be a good change of style if Hickman did try to introduce anger into hios stories. I wouldn't mind seeing how Hickman would handle a slight against BP, like Reed did by including Doom in the FF. Can you imaginde, BP and Doom in the same FF team?

[jackolover]

That's Pawned? Mystical beings? See this is what I mean, why would he be able to anticipate that? And isn't that proof that your "marry sue" doesn't work?

Plus,if you look at the scene, he looks like he knows something was going to happen. He looks at Reed and then his shoulders are lowered down, like he has a weight on his shoulders. It's magic, a very ancient kind. I don't see him being able to do that. Why?

He's not perfect, or beyond losing or being wrong. In he didn't get "pawned" ...he wasn't touched.

He did get knocked out in defenders, but ok. He just got knocked out. Like any other character could get knocked out.

Well, people have explained here that magic isn't BP strong point. I just found it strange that BP had, and used, the magic Solomon frogs, but he overlooked the magic connextion between the Egyptians and Bast, which is part of his initiation. Maybe BP just gets his annointing, then forgets about where it all comes from? It's possible.

[XPac]

I don't know if Hickman does confrontational literature. He tends to do historic. Hickman writes more like the "Prometheus" writers, in that it's more important to mention the progression of the plot, than to concentrate of the ego conflicts. It would be a good change of style if Hickman did try to introduce anger into hios stories. I wouldn't mind seeing how Hickman would handle a slight against BP, like Reed did by including Doom in the FF. Can you imaginde, BP and Doom in the same FF team?

I can see Shuri being angry about it.

But again, I'd be surprised if T'Challa was that upset. He's got a history of utilizing Doom as a resource himself, and more importantly has a good grasp of the big picture. But Shuri is a more emotional, and frankly much less intelligent Panther. Plus, she's the one that's actually in charge.

But I assume they're not gonna go there. And since Dooms association with the FF really led to his "death" (albeint it temporary), there's not a whole lot to complain about anyways.

[jackolover]

I do think plenty of posters like Doom... but ultimately Doom is a villain and posters know it. That defines their expectations of the character. You don't look down on a villain for acting like a villain, because they're a villain.

So yes, Iron Man or Black Panther or Reed were to do something that Doom did, they might get criticized while Doom may not. Stark or Reed aren't supposed to make Clors... that's the job for guys like Doom. I guess you can call it a double standard if you really want too... but I think it's sort of a given that different standards are applied to heroes and villains. That's just common sense.

I tend to see the criticism of heroes making Clors, as a demonstration of the clay feet Stan Lee likes to remind us of. Stark and Reed had been portrayed as these neat father figures who were above suspicion. What Pre-CW up to Dark reign has done is remind us that nobody in the MU can be held up to the light without finding imperfections. I like that light.

[jackolover]

I can see Shuri being angry about it.

But again, I'd be surprised if T'Challa was that upset. He's got a history of utilizing Doom as a resource himself, and more importantly has a good grasp of the big picture. But Shuri is a more emotional, and frankly much less intelligent Panther. Plus, she's the one that's actually in charge.

But I assume they're not gonna go there. And since Dooms association with the FF really led to his "death" (albeint it temporary), there's not a whole lot to complain about anyways.

That would be a rather pointless deadend to pursue.

[XPac]

Well, people have explained here that magic isn't BP strong point. I just found it strange that BP had, and used, the magic Solomon frogs, but he overlooked the magic connextion between the Egyptians and Bast, which is part of his initiation. Maybe BP just gets his annointing, then forgets about where it all comes from? It's possible.

Just brainstorming here... but I wonder if T'Challa might have assumed that Bast herself would sort of cover that front. Maybe Bast would protect Wakanda not from human threats, but from some of it's god buddies.

But that's probably out of character for T'Challa. He's probably smart enough to assume that if Anubis moved against them, he'd probably have to take care of that like he take care of everything else.

[XPac]

I tend to see the criticism of heroes making Clors, as a demonstration of the clay feet Stan Lee likes to remind us of. Stark and Reed had been portrayed as these neat father figures who were above suspicion. What Pre-CW up to Dark reign has done is remind us that nobody in the MU can be held up to the light without finding imperfections. I like that light.

Yeah, that's certainly fair.

No one can really be held to the standard of say a Silver Age Steve Rogers (even Steve Rogers himself these days). Like anything else, it's not black and white... it's a matter of degree.

I think characters like Stark or T'Challa are actually more interesting when they've got feet of clay, so I'm cool with them not being boy scouts so long as it makes sense in that context. There were instances in CW where I think Stark was seemingly being a dick just for the sake of being a dick... and that bothered me a bit more.

But despite all that... I do think some readers like things simpler. They like their good guys good and their bad guys bad. And I can sort of understand that too I guess.

[Umbra]

Well, people have explained here that magic isn't BP strong point. I just found it strange that BP had, and used, the magic Solomon frogs, but he overlooked the magic connextion between the Egyptians and Bast, which is part of his initiation. Maybe BP just gets his annointing, then forgets about where it all comes from? It's possible.

Huh? How did he over look it? I didn't get that from the story.

[jackolover]

Huh? How did he over look it? I didn't get that from the story.

No, not from the story. That would be me interpreting it like that. I'm thinking, when the first attack came from the Egyptians, that BP was surprised, no? That's how I imagined it.

[jackolover]

Yeah, that's certainly fair.

No one can really be held to the standard of say a Silver Age Steve Rogers (even Steve Rogers himself these days). Like anything else, it's not black and white... it's a matter of degree.

I think characters like Stark or T'Challa are actually more interesting when they've got feet of clay, so I'm cool with them not being boy scouts so long as it makes sense in that context. There were instances in CW where I think Stark was seemingly being a dick just for the sake of being a dick... and that bothered me a bit more.

But despite all that... I do think some readers like things simpler. They like their good guys good and their bad guys bad. And I can sort of understand that too I guess.

It's why you get so many enthusiastic reactions on the forums. Super HERO stories, you would imagine, are supposed to be about heroes, and a definition of a hero is someone who never does wrong. I've never seen that hero. Heroes tend to be ORDINARY people, (and by that I mean fallable), who can do extraordinary things, sometimes. Not all the time.

[Umbra]

No, not from the story. That would be me interpreting it like that. I'm thinking, when the first attack came from the Egyptians, that BP was surprised, no? That's how I imagined it.

Yeah, but I'm not sure that was being surprised, but rather burden with not being able to stop endless tied of Anubis undead warriors...and the fact they found the secret?

He knows Atum's heart is in Wakanda, that's what they are protecting foremost... But since they were tasked with this, it has never occurred. That's how I saw it. Shocked yes. Worried? Sure. I'm not sure he was surpised about being attacked by the Anubis and his warriors...meaning who they are. He would know.

He knows the connection. Atum,Bast it's pretty straight foward.

[SilverZeal]

Hickman needs to write the nxt panther book NOW!

Co-ignd!

I really liked howed he addressed Wakanda's money status.

Haha....Wakanda even ithout vibranium still has enuff d get d US outta debt..."And u r welkom by d way" by Tchalla 2 Reed.

Wait... Ammon Ra is the freaking Demogorge? He's that guy? If so then yeah, I don't know if I buy Anubis being in that sort of weight class. We're not just talking about an Egyptian Pantheon god... we're talking about an Elder God. That should be a whole other weight class. He's a guy that's supposed to go around eating guys like Anubis.

All that aside... it's fun seeing the Egyptian gods get more play. It's rare that anyone but the Greek and Norse gods really get any play.

Very very true!

No, not from the story. That would be me interpreting it like that. I'm thinking, when the first attack came from the Egyptians, that BP was surprised, no? That's how I imagined it.

We doubt BP was surprised...Hickman md dat pretty clear with d "and still dey came" poetic dialogue from BP, he was aware bcuz dey had d "knowledge" & dey cud "explain it with science, with magic, with faith & with history itself...& with d way things simply r" (pg 17).

It's interesting that Black Panthers have been anointed with a elder gods blood. I wonder when they switched to the HSH. I guess this might be how we have two Black Panthers? Shuri Herb powered, T'challa Atum powered?

Is Atum/Ammun-Ra d Egyptian equivalent of Viking Odin god?

So, it seems that Shuri is now Queen of Wakanda. That's interesting change, wonder if that happens in Defenders. As for the heart, I'm thinking that the heart was planted in the ground, and that the Heart Shaped Herb grew from that spot. So, I'm thinking that the BP line get their power from the heart of Amun-Ra.

Same thoughts here...& dat only BP bloodline can ingest it with sudden death bcuz their ancestor was blessd & annointd by d Bastet with d blud of Amun-Ra. Dis has a heavy continuity significance 2 Priest's run.

To answer your question Aces...no and yes. Hickman does a great job of handling the situation without stepping on anyone's toes as T'Challa's interaction with Bentley shows he is still regarded and respected as King in Wakanda, even if Shuri "officially" rules on the throne. Ororo and TChalla are still royalty. Shuri is still Queen. All parties come out looking strong and powerful.

Yeah ....like Vladmir & Medvedev of Russia only without d social injustice.
When Medvedev was prez every1 knew it was truely Vladmir in power.

[XPac]

Is Atum/Ammun-Ra d Egyptian equivalent of Viking Odin god?

Here's the wiki on him. The marvel version technically isn't an Egyptian god at all. He's an elder god. But marvel seems to have sort of shoe-horned him into the role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogorge

[XPac]

Same thoughts here...& dat only BP bloodline can ingest it with sudden death bcuz their ancestor was blessd & annointd by d Bastet with d blud of Amun-Ra. Dis has a heavy continuity significance 2 Priest's run.

Spidey was able to ingest it though.

I've been saying for years... next time there's that open challenge in Wakanda for the title, Peter should just go for it.