Batman Solicitations for September, 2012

[Mr. Holmes]

So most likely, we will be able to forget about the Superboy Prime Punch crap after the Red Hood issue.

[bat39]

So most likely, we will be able to forget about the Superboy Prime Punch crap after the Red Hood issue.

IMO, the Under the Hood DTV went about it the right way with the Lazarus Pit.

[WhitOro]

So most likely, we will be able to forget about the Superboy Prime Punch crap after the Red Hood issue.

Personally, I never had a problem ignoring that detail.
Jason is back, hooray, that's what character do, they ressurrect.

So, is Batgirl 0 going to be a reprint of The Killing Joke?

[Conway]

HOLY...!!! Power Girl can't have a boob window but Catwoman doesn't mind. "Becky is going to loose her... mind when she sees that" cover.

[godzilla2099]

Rather have Azrael, BlackBat, or Spoiler return than "TALON" the gay male in batman comics.

I agree

I'd rather have a Talia, Spoiler, or Cassandra Cain Story instead.

Hell, even a villain would sound better. I'd love to read one with Riddler or Solomon Grundy

[Mr. Holmes]

Personally, I never had a problem ignoring that detail.
Jason is back, hooray, that's what character do, they ressurrect.

So, is Batgirl 0 going to be a reprint of The Killing Joke?

Same here, I've used the movie as my personal canon for a while. But it's still nice to have an official replacement.

[TZDEKA]

Hmm...that is an interesting interpretation. Though I personally prefer the idea of the Wayne murders being a senseless crime which could have happened to anyone...you do have a point there.

BTW, no where in Begins was it implied that Ra's had the Wayne killed. Rather, Ra's was commenting on the futility of Thomas Wayne's attempts to solve Gotham's problems, seeing as he was gunned down by the very kind of person he was trying to help.

Actually, if you look at it on a deeper level, Joe Chill being an agent of organized crime, or just a hardened criminal, makes a lot more sense given the context of Batman's mission. If Joe Chill was just some poor guy who was desperate for money, then he is representative of Gotham's economic problems; the 'evil' that took the Wayne's lives is thus poverty and it makes sense for Bruce to try to get rid of that evil by focusing on solving Gotham's economic problems.

However, Batman's mission is traditionally depicted as one of dealing with the corruption and evil inherent in Gotham City. His primary targets are organized crime and psychopathic murderers who aren't in the least motivated by poverty. So it makes sense, looking at it that way, that the man who killed Bruce's parents was a representative of this organized crime element of Gotham

Arguably, Nolan got the best of both worlds. He showed Joe Chill as a desperate man motivated by poverty...but then went on to explain how that poverty was caused by Carmine Falcone and his brand of organized crime, thus explaining the direction of Bruce's crusade.

Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't think it being a random crime or not really effects the ties to Batman trying to prevent others from suffering the same thing he did, because the fact that "It's a crime that could happen to anyone" isn't really inherent to that. He's trying to protect people from becoming victims in general, whether or not the crimes are common ones or not are really doesn't factor too heavily into it. And yeah, if Joe Chill were just a sign of poverty Bruce wouldn't feel like he needed to simply fight crime, Batman wouldn't need to exist. But if Joe Chill is an emblem of what the corrupt are doing to Gotham, then I think it informs Batman's mission more in some ways. There are few more quick bullet points about it:

-Joe Chill can still be a desperate man who became a criminal lackey because of poverty
-Joe Chill in both his Golden Age appearance and in Joe Chill in Hell becomes a mob boss himself, implying that his "desperateness" isn't the only reason he turned to crime anyway
-They were mugged because Martha was wearing pearls. That's not really a crime everyone can relate to anyway

I dunno, like I said, I can see both sides. But I think the idea that it's more "poetic" is necessarily the case.

[Dr. Hurt]

I'm of two minds, personally. A random mugging might be "poetic" in some ways, but having Joe Chill simply be a weapon of corruption embodies, I think, the mission Batman has set out to do more. Batman's mission is to stamp out the corruption and big-time criminals that had made Gotham crime-filled so that he could make Gotham a better place, which is embodied by your Lex Moxons, your Black Gloves, your Courts of Owls, your Falcone Families, etc. Random muggings can potentially happen anywhere, but the corruption in Gotham is extraordinary and more indicative it's in need of a hero. That's why Batman Begins has Bruce's vengeance stolen from him by Falcone, it's supposed to open his eyes to the larger problems of Gotham. Also, IIRC, doesn't Ra's imply in Begins that he had the Waynes killed in a bid to help destabilize Gotham?

But Batman should be against crime in general. Not just corruptions and secret organizations.

I feel it's more poetic and humble if he's the victim of a simple crime. He doesnt need a big conspiracy to kill his parents.

1. Stephbat was awesome
2. Batgirl's outselling her now
3. The public still sees her that way

Sees who? Barbara?
I dont get your point.

Yes sales dont mean quality, but when someone like WW is on the brink of death, you need to shake things up. Johns did that for GL and look where he is now!

[new_onslaught]

IMO, the Under the Hood DTV went about it the right way with the Lazarus Pit.

What I don't like about the "Under The Red Hood" explanation is that Bruce spoilers:

didn't notice that it was a freaking doll!!!

end of spoilers
That's pretty silly for the world's greatest detective. If they change that and replace it with another body which had undergone plastic surgery to look the same or something like, that would be more believable.

[Roldan]

Personally, I never had a problem ignoring that detail.
Jason is back, hooray, that's what character do, they ressurrect.

So, is Batgirl 0 going to be a reprint of The Killing Joke?

I'm pretty sure The Killing Joke didn't have the origin of Batgirl or is that in the deluxe edition? Also does that include her rehabilitation? I haven't bought it yet but i do like the new coloring so i might get it.

[batGRRRl4ever]

So, is Batgirl 0 going to be a reprint of The Killing Joke?

It's a new story essentially as:

1.) The story has never been told from Barbara's perspective before, and she was never the actual focus in the original tale.

2.) This is a new universe so there could be changes.

3.) Also emphasis no doubt will be placed on Barbara focusing on recovering to regain her role as Batgirl as opposed to simply accepting in the previous reality, as it states in the blurb. I'm also curious what role this function facilitates in Pandora's wider scheme against Darkseid.

[bat39]

Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't think it being a random crime or not really effects the ties to Batman trying to prevent others from suffering the same thing he did, because the fact that "It's a crime that could happen to anyone" isn't really inherent to that. He's trying to protect people from becoming victims in general, whether or not the crimes are common ones or not are really doesn't factor too heavily into it. And yeah, if Joe Chill were just a sign of poverty Bruce wouldn't feel like he needed to simply fight crime, Batman wouldn't need to exist. But if Joe Chill is an emblem of what the corrupt are doing to Gotham, then I think it informs Batman's mission more in some ways. There are few more quick bullet points about it:

-Joe Chill can still be a desperate man who became a criminal lackey because of poverty
-Joe Chill in both his Golden Age appearance and in Joe Chill in Hell becomes a mob boss himself, implying that his "desperateness" isn't the only reason he turned to crime anyway
-They were mugged because Martha was wearing pearls. That's not really a crime everyone can relate to anyway

I dunno, like I said, I can see both sides. But I think the idea that it's more "poetic" is necessarily the case.

As far as I can remember, the first time the idea of Joe Chill being motivated by poverty was introduced was in DKR...and even then, it comes across more like a belated realization by a 50-something Bruce Wayne decades after the fact. In most versions in the comics, Chill is either a Mob assassin, or a hardened criminal who eventually became a Mob boss himself.

Nolan went back to Frank Miller's idea that Chill was motivated by poverty...but then again, something which few people can appreciate about Nolan's trilogy is that in his version, the death of the Waynes is NOT Batman's primary motivation. Sure, his parent's death sets him down the path to becoming Batman, but it was the realization of the corruption of Gotham exploited by the Falcone Mob which really motivated him to clean up Gotham. I've read somewhere that this is also in keeping with Nolan's 'realistic' take on the Batman mythos. Rather than Batman being the product of an eight year old boy's graveyard vow; he is rather the outcome of a lifelong process of discovery, realization and preparation-as one man learns to overcome his grief and channel it into a positive force after seeing the bigger picture behind his personal tragedy.

[minasithil]

I'm cautiously interested in these but I get the feeling that some of them will make me rage. At least we'll get a better idea of how a lot of events and other things finally stand though.

-Rather intrigued by the focus on Damian's relationship with Talia in Batman & Robin but concerned how they'll handle it
-A bit worried by what might show up in Nightwing, but could be interesting
-I'm pretty sure Batgirl is going to make me rage a little but we'll see

[TZDEKA]

But Batman should be against crime in general. Not just corruptions and secret organizations.

I feel it's more poetic and humble if he's the victim of a simple crime. He doesnt need a big conspiracy to kill his parents.

I didn't say he should only be against corruption and secret organizations, at all. What I said was that Joe Chill being a hired gun undercuts the fact that Gotham is corrupt and needs something special to fight for it. It, I feel, is perhaps more emblematic of what Batman is combating not because he should only be up against corruption and secret organizations, but because random poor muggers aren't really his main target. Corruption and Black Glove/Falcone Family-ish organizations are more his target because he's looking at the big picture, whereas muggings are something he'll patrol the city to stop but it won't make Gotham much of a better place overall when he does. I'm not saying your opinion is incorrect obviously, I'm just explaining why I, personally, think tying Joe Chill into some/one of the bigger criminal organizations in Gotham can work just as well as him being a desperate mugger. And, like bat39 noted, if the problem was simply poverty I don't think Bruce would dedicate his life to being Batman. Batman is his tool to making Gotham a better place, and it would be unnecessary if his target was simply poor, desperate muggers.

Hell, Joe Chill in Hell sort of implies he was supposed to wipe out all three Waynes, as if he was hired to do it. He says he was supposed to kill all three but couldn't kill Bruce because he reminded Joe of his son.

[GoldStarz]

Sees who? Barbara?
I dont get your point.

Yes sales dont mean quality, but when someone like WW is on the brink of death, you need to shake things up. Johns did that for GL and look where he is now!

People still see WW the same way.

I'm not saying WW didn't need a shake-up (although what she really needed was a good writer), I'm saying she didn't need to be shaken up this much. She's Zeus' kid, okay, really cliche, but still acceptable, but was it really necessary to make the Amazons sexist, murdering rapists? What I'm saying is, you can shake up mythos up, but you shouldn't shake it up too much at one time, or it'll feel like you're derailing it. That's the problem with both Batgirl and WW, they changed too much too fast (although, if Azz is trying to make the DC gods like their Greek counterparts, than I fully expect these changes to be lies because the Greek Gods love screwing people... Literally and figuratively.)