Wonder Woman #0 solicit

[americanwonder]

Regarding war, General Robert E Lee once commented "It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it."

I agree. One of my favourite quotes (wish I knew by who) has always been, "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."

Nice quotes - thanks for sharing Brett and Arvandor. :)

[Don-Jack]

Another great quote: "Buy War Bonds!"

Whoops.

[slvn]

It was a different time, and comics were told a different way.

Precisely, And I'm glad that times have changed. Simonson is very good at what he does, and I liked it a lot back in the day. But tastes change, and now redundant narration is a bit less appealing to me.

I really don't think we need Fandral even to tell us that the energy is crackling. True, we can't literally see it crackle, bu we know what crackling energy looks like in comic books, just like we know what superspeed looks like--and if Beta Ray were flying towards him trailing speed lines, i would hope Fandral wouldn't need to tell us, "Bill is moving very fast!"

It's not that words matter less in contemporary comics like Azarello's --quite the reverse. Look at the Strife/Aries conversation. Simonson would probably have had Aries say, "By my beard! Yon villainous knave hath blown the very hat off my godly head! Yet in truth, it troubleth me not!" Instead, Azz has Aries say nothing about the explosion--which is, after all, one of the many things he doesn't care about. Instead, he has the god tell Strife that she brings out the best and worst in him, and he has Strife tease Aries about his interest in Wonder Woman (leading us to wonder just what that interest is). Similarly, in the conversation in Heph's workshop, he uses Heph's line to Zola about Wonder Woman not needing saving to pique our curiosity about what's going on and what Heph's involvement in it is. These are functions that the images aren't performing.

There is a happy medium between the two extremes - overnarrating and letting the pictures do all the work.

Sure, I agree with that.

The first panel with Thor and Bill duking it out makes the point. These days it would just be published as is with no text, but the writing "Mere words cannot describe the power of the blows..." is a great example.

Eh. Those words are basically a figure of speech that tells me "they hit each other really hard." I can see that by looking at the page. I'd be more interested in dialogue that reveled more about the characters' personalities and motivations.

[brettc1]

Precisely, And I'm glad that times have changed. Simonson is very good at what he does, and I liked it a lot back in the day. But tastes change, and now redundant narration is a bit less appealing to me.

Tastes change yes, but Shakespeare remains Shakespeare, even if it is no in the original Klingon.

I really don't think we need Fandral even to tell us that the energy is crackling. True, we can't literally see it crackle, bu we know what crackling energy looks like in comic books, just like we know what superspeed looks like--and if Beta Ray were flying towards him trailing speed lines, i would hope Fandral wouldn't need to tell us, "Bill is moving very fast!"

I would not be surprised if he did say something like "He moves like the lighting itself!" Because really, how fast is fast? Bullet fast? Flash fast? The example on the previous page is of J Jonah Jameson is a good one. These days a writer might well do the same thing but just put it in as an inner monologue. The Dark Knight Returns is foll of this kind of stuff, it just the character narrates to the reader instead of talking out loud.

It's not that words matter less in contemporary comics like Azarello's --quite the reverse. Look at the Stife/Aries conversation. Simonson would probably have had Aries say, "By my beard! Yon villainous knave hath blown the very hat off my godly head! Yet in truth, it troubleth me not!" Instead, Azz has Aries say nothing about the explosion--which is, after all, one of the many things he doesn't care about. Instead, he has the god tell Strife that she brings out the best and worst in him, and he has Strife tease Aries about his interest in Wonder Woman (leading us to wonder just what that interest is). Similarly, in the conversation in Heph's workshop, he uses Heph's line to Zola about Wonder Woman not needing saving to pique our curiosity about what's going on and what Heph's involvement in it is.his is something tht the images aren't doing.

First off I have seen Walt write Wonder Woman and that is doing a disservice to his ability. It wasnt the best story but the dialogue from the gods was not in any way corny.

Second, the incident with Stife and War is one of the occasions where Azarello does give us enough to go on. After all, the explosion is really a counterpoint to their conversation, and drawing attention to it would have undermined the point that the gods present simply dont care. I do think though that two pages was a waste of storytelling space - a one page shot of the blast would have been adequate.

Eh. Those words are basically a figure of speech that tells me "they hit each other really hard." I can see that by looking at the page. I'd be more interested in dialogue that reveled more about the characters' personalities and motivations.

They hit each other really hard does not convey nearly the same meaning at all. Batman hits people really hard. Thor hitting you really hard is on a completely different level. The choice of words here is as deliberate as the use of artistic style. And notice - the panel itself is not huge. If you did this with JUST the art you could show the landscape disintergraing around them and shockwaves echoing out and it would take up a whole page. Simonson econonmizes by using language very effectively and so give himself more space to actually tell the story and give the reader better value for money.

This is something folks keep mentioning - how quick the book reads. I have heard it over an over. This Thor comic took me 20 minutes to read 30 years ago and I paid just over a dolloar for it. Today an issue of Wonder Woman reads front to back in almost half the time and I pay triple the price.

[slvn]

I would not be surprised if he did say something like "He moves like the lighting itself!"

He might have, but it wouldn't have told us anything we wouldn't have known from the speed lines in the drawing (except maybe how impressed Fandral was, which might have been something, I'll grant you. If that's the purpose, it would be more justified than the "crackling energy" bit, IMO.)

First off I have seen Walt write Wonder Woman and that is doing a disservice to his ability. It wasnt the best story but the dialogue from the gods was not in any way corny.

Oh, I'm just having fun; my hypothetical lines were meant as parody,not literal imitation.

I do think though that two pages was a waste of storytelling space - a one page shot of the blast would have been adequate.

Yeah, I actually don't disagree with that.

They hit each other really hard does not convey nearly the same meaning at all.

Yeah, but we should be able to understand without this line that they're fighting on the level of gods. "Mere words cannot descibe..." is just a bombastically worded cliche, and not very precise--it doesn't add very much and doesn't specify very much. How forceful a strike is too heard to describe? we don;t really know. The phrase which doesn't really add much specification at all. (No offense meant to Walt--I really did love his Thor back then.)

[brettc1]

Yeah, but we should be able to understand without this line that they're fighting on the level of gods. "Mere words cannot descibe..." is just a bombastically worded cliche, and not very precise--it doesn't add very much and doesn't specify very much. How forceful a strike is too heard to describe? we don;t really know. The phrase which doesn't really add much specification at all. (No offense meant to Walt--I really did love his Thor back then.)

I think its important to remember that not everyone picking up a book is instantly familiar with all the characters, and that we get these issues a month seperate. So some exposition to bring folks up to speed is sometimes required.

That said, Simonson' use of language in this frame tells you, if you are picking up the book for the first time, these guys are REALLY strong. Hulk level strong.

On another level, it is good simply to READ! People and especially young people today spend so much time WATCHING. This is an important skill to be sure but it should not mean the abandonment of the written word. Hence this pic recently...



For any not aware thats Nathan Fillion, star of Castle and the voice of Steve Trevor in the WW animated movie a few years back. This is part of a campaign to get folks in the US reading again.

[SteveGus]

I think its important to remember that not everyone picking up a book is instantly familiar with all the characters, and that we get these issues a month seperate. So some exposition to bring folks up to speed is sometimes required.

This is an aspect of the art that seems neglected today, especially at DC. Marvel, at least, often adds in a sheet identifying the characters, their powers, and a short synopsis of what has gone before.

That said, Simonson' use of language in this frame tells you, if you are picking up the book for the first time, these guys are REALLY strong. Hulk level strong.

That --- and classic Marvel prose was also used to set a larger-than-life and out-of-this-world mood. It was expected that folks hanging around Asgard would not talk like your co-workers. The object was not to impress the reader with the reality of the scene, but with its fantastic unreality. Realistic naturalism has become a problem.

[slvn]

I think its important to remember that not everyone picking up a book is instantly familiar with all the characters, and that we get these issues a month seperate. So some exposition to bring folks up to speed is sometimes required.

That said, Simonson' use of language in this frame tells you, if you are picking up the book for the first time, these guys are REALLY strong. Hulk level strong.

So, words can describe the strength of the Thing, and once words fail, we're at Hulk level? Good to know!

Really, "words cannot describe" is a cliche that is often used hyperbolically, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some say "words can't describe how hard Batman hit the joker!) (By the way, there are over 2,400,000 Google hits for "words cannot describe" and "words can't describe," combined. An example? "Words can't describe how amazing Justin Bieber is.")

But does that picture look like Batman hitting Joker? There's visible force streaming off of them; obviously, even if you didn't know who they were, this looks like a conflict at some greater-than-human level.

On another level, it is good simply to READ!

Of course! Again, I'm not saying that Simonson used too many words; I'm saying the words and pictures should each add value, not just be redundant of each other. And the language and pictures should each help us read the other. For example in the panels above with Diana and Strife, Strife's body language--drinking more wine--helps me interpret her line ("absolutely") as not spoken with urgency but rather spoken in a matter of fact, almost languid manner. There's kind of a creepy contrast between Strife's casual delivery and the ominous content of the message she is delivering (that Diana may be in danger of a life worse than death).

That --- and classic Marvel prose was also used to set a larger-than-life and out-of-this-world mood. It was expected that folks hanging around Asgard would not talk like your co-workers. The object was not to impress the reader with the reality of the scene, but with its fantastic unreality. Realistic naturalism has become a problem.

Just a few posts ago, someone complained that Wonder Woman's language--"If my life is a lie, can death be worse?"--was not realistic enough. "Who talks that way?," the poster asked. I tend to agree with them that much of the language among the immortals in WW is more crafted (or, the poster might say, contrived) than the language of mortals (though, for me, that's just fine). I don't think it's very naturalistic at all. You don't have throw in a "hath" or a "doth" (like Fandral's) to give the language and the story an "out-of-this-world mood." Think of Zola trying to match the language of the gods by engaging in her own epic simile ("or like then they catch a firefly...."); clearly, she's finding god-language humorously difficult to adjust to.

[Don-Jack]

Speaking of language, some say Azzarello uses too many puns and that it shows a lack of writting abilities. Which is not true, in my opinion.
First, he didn't use so many puns in any other book I've read.
Second, most of the puns are said by the gods, as if it were an habit of them: mocking each other. It's their language.

[brettc1]

So, words can describe the strength of the Thing, and once words fail, we're had Hulk level? Good to know!

I have no idea what this is meant to communicate. Maybe you needed a picture...

Really, "words cannot describe" is a cliche that is often used hyperbolically, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some say "words can't describe how hard Batman hit the joker!") (By the way, there are over 2,400,000 Google hits for words cannot describe" and "words can't describe," combined. An example? "Words can't describe how amazing Justin Bieber is.")

But does that picture look like Batman hitting Joker? There's visible force streaming off of them; obviously, even if you didn't know who they were, this looks like a conflict at some greater-than-human level.

Can you see the landscape being destroyed around them? No. Do you know its happening? Yes. Did Simonson save at least half a page of earthquakes and avalanches and so give himself more pages to actually extend his storytelling? Absolutely.

You many argue with the choice of words, but the choice to use words remains effective, powerful, economical and engaging. Where you could just look at the page, now you can look AND read. You participate visually and linguistically.

Just a few posts ago, someone complained that Wonder Woman's language--"If my life is a lie, can death be worse?"--was not realistic enough. "Who talks that way?," the poster asked. I tend to agree with them that much of the language among the immortals in WW is more crafted (or, the poster might say, contrived) than the language of mortals (though, for me, that's just fine). I don't think it's very naturalistic at all. You don't have throw in a "hath" or a "doth" (like Fandral's) to give the language and the story an "out-of-this-world mood." Think of Zola trying to match the language of the gods by engaging in her own epic simile ("or like then they catch a firefly...."); clearly, she's finding god-language humorously difficult to adjust to.

Fandral talks that way as do the other Asgaridans because in the 80's that's how Asgardians talked. Now they dont and I dont doubt if Simonson were writing the scence today he would adjust Fandrals's dialogue to match. Ragging on it is like complaining that in the 70's PowerMan had an afro.

[Fate's Faith]

No, sometimes there is no good alternative and you just pick the one that is the least awful.

I agree. One of my favourite quotes (wish I knew by who) has always been, "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."

Well, I've been schooled. In the Revolutionary War, the colonies did an awful, evil thing fighting for freedom against Britain. Then in WWII, the Allies did an awful, evil thing by saving the Jews and protecting Europe from the Axis. Its just terrible to think war can be a good thing, have good results and be the right decision. Will keep that in mind for the future.

[Gaelforce]

Well, I've been schooled. In the Revolutionary War, the colonies did an awful, evil thing fighting for freedom against Britain. Then in WWII, the Allies did an awful, evil thing by saving the Jews and protecting Europe from the Axis. Its just terrible to think war can be a good thing, have good results and be the right decision. Will keep that in mind for the future.

Well, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would probably have something to say about 'lesser of evils.'

[Fate's Faith]

Someone had better tell Walt Simonson that his run on Thor has been reclassified as an illustrated novel, not a comic book ;)

Never cared for his art during his run since it so often did require explaination for what we were supposed to be seeing. Just because the art fails to move the story forward doesn't mean its improved because you describe it. Its like those artist who don't do backgrounds so they have to tell us where we are. Just because they tell us the setting doesn't mean I can see it.

[Fate's Faith]

Well, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would probably have something to say about 'lesser of evils.'

As would China, I suppose.

[brettc1]

As would China, I suppose.

Now you're getting it.

If you have to fight, you fight. But its always the worst option.