Journey Into Mystery #639 *Spoilers*

[Gallifrey]

I think the problem is the writers have stapled together several different realms that were previously unrelated. The home of the Tuatha de Danaan, the Otherworld of Merlyn and the Avalon of the Green Knight were different dimensions, each with its own supreme ruler, but now they have glued them together and it´s a mess even greater than usual.

There was never any assertion that they were different realms – they just didn’t ‘connect’ previously, a situation Gillen is now addressing with this storyline. Otherworld is a big(gish) place, as shown by the map upthread, so we’ve only seen parts of the whole depicted in previous stories. The third panel on page 5 sums it up nicely – you’ve got a representative of the Otherworld of the Tuatha (the Dagda), the Otherworld of the Pendragons (Arthur, The Lady and Merlyn), and the Otherworld of the Corps (Captain Britain and Merlyn again). I wonder if the Manchester Gods’ representative is based on someone, and if so, who?

The Dagda’s a scruffy bugger, isn’t he? He’s a big man, but he’s out of shape. He always reminds me of Jim Royle for some reason: “Manchester Gods, my arse.”

Gillen and Elson have given us an Otherworld you can actually understand people wanting to preserve and protect. If there is a deliberate intention to introduce a Tolkienesque playground within the MU, I’d rather see it based on this version than Remender and Tocchini’s muddled, muddy (both visually and narratively) attempt from a few months back. All in all, a great piece of comicbook storytelling and a much – needed tonic for us demoralised Captain Britain/Marvel UK fans

[Habis]

There was never any assertion that they were different realms – they just didn’t ‘connect’ previously, a situation Gillen is now addressing with this storyline. Otherworld is a big(gish) place, as shown by the map upthread, so we’ve only seen parts of the whole depicted in previous stories. The third panel on page 5 sums it up nicely – you’ve got a representative of the Otherworld of the Tuatha (the Dagda), the Otherworld of the Pendragons (Arthur, The Lady and Merlyn), and the Otherworld of the Corps (Captain Britain and Merlyn again).

They are the same now, but they were created by independently by different writers who had different ideas about what "Otherworld" was:

-Merlyn was created for the Captain Britain series, and is essentially a powerful mage-scientist that uses universe-altering magitech. His Otherworld is the parallel Earth he originally came from which used to be inhabited by his elf-like race, but after becoming godlike-powerful thanks to the magical energy matrix he created with the help of Necrom, Feron and the Phoenix he set a puppet government for his world and created a pan-dimensional army to fight Necrom once he returned. His Otherworld was essentially a parallel Earth powered by magitech.

-The Tuatha de Danaan are exactly like the Asgardians, and their world used to be a pocket dimension similar to Asgard, floating in the Hyperspace.

-The Green Knight and Pendragon´s Avalon was created by Marvel UK, and was quite disconnected from the rest of the Marvel continuity: It was a pocket dimension ruled by the Green Knight, that is sort of an antropomorphic incarnaton of either the British Isles or of Earth´s life itself.

All of those were worlds on their own right, each ruled by their own supreme overlord.

[Gallifrey]

They are the same now, but they were created by independently by different writers who had different ideas about what "Otherworld" was:

-Merlyn was created for the Captain Britain series, and is essentially a powerful mage-scientist that uses universe-altering magitech. His Otherworld is the parallel Earth he originally came from which used to be inhabited by his elf-like race, but after becoming godlike-powerful thanks to the magical energy matrix he created with the help of Necrom, Feron and the Phoenix he set a puppet government for his world and created a pan-dimensional army to fight Necrom once he returned. His Otherworld was essentially a parallel Earth powered by magitech.

-The Tuatha de Danaan are exactly like the Asgardians, and their world used to be a pocket dimension similar to Asgard, floating in the Hyperspace.

-The Green Knight and Pendragon´s Avalon was created by Marvel UK, and was quite disconnected from the rest of the Marvel continuity: It was a pocket dimension ruled by the Green Knight, that is sort of an antropomorphic incarnaton of either the British Isles or of Earth´s life itself.

All of those were worlds on their own right, each ruled by their own supreme overlord.

.


I have to disagree, I'm afraid; I'm fully aware of the rationale behind Otherworld and Avalon in the UK material, but they've never been mutually exclusive, just never properly linked before. What didn't make sense, and was really a mess, was having three or four different aspects of Celtic/British mythology in the MU without them connecting. It's stated in the Thor material that the Tuatha are based in Avalon, so either that's the same Avalon that the KOP were based in or you're suggesting that there's more than one Avalon in Marvel continuity. More than one depiction of Avalon, certainly, but more than one realm with that name? That'd be way too confusing.

The Green Knight was based in the Green Chapel, which itself was in Avalon; I don't think it was ever established that he/it was the ruler of Avalon itself. Besides which, the Knight was shown defending Avalon against Skrull incursion in CBMI:13, where it's confirmed that Avalon is a part of Otherworld rather than an alternate realm or dimension, so it's not as if JiM is setting a precedent with this storyline - it's already been shown.

As to Merlyn's Otherworld being a parallel earth, that's never been asserted as far as I can remember; I think you may be getting confused with the Earth that Saturnyne and the D.D.C. were originally based on, sometimes known as 'the Hub' (and this is where the 616 designation for the mainstream Marvel Earth comes from, btw; it was never used as, or intended to be, a categorisation for all the parallels in the Omniverse, just the ones the D.D.C. oversaw, which might well have been finite in number). As for Merlyn, it's already been explained upthread that he's the same Merlin of Arthur's court, apart from a period when he was briefly usurped by an impostor.

I think Otherworld as a concept has been around in the MU since the late '60s, and was first introduced (IIRC) in Fantastic Four, with reference to the legend of Prester John. I also think, given the elastic nature of the dimension, it's not impossible to accept that what we've seen over the years are different aspects of a greater whole. And personally I'd rather have a deft and assured effort to reconcile those different aspects into a more cohesive depiction, as it could well increase the appearances of Otherworld as a regular venue like Asgard(ia) and Olympus in future material.

[Vic's Aegis]

I've only read an issue here and there so far of JIM, however, this issue was great and I'm looking forward to the rest of this story! And I'm on board through the next storyline crossover with Thor!

[seekquaze]

The Dagda’s a scruffy bugger, isn’t he? He’s a big man, but he’s out of shape. He always reminds me of Jim Royle for some reason: “Manchester Gods, my arse.”

The Dagda, like a lot of other surviving Irish Mythology, is surprisingly different from other similar gods. Whereas most fertility gods, protector gods, and/or father gods are portrayed as serious and physically impressive the Dagda has always been portrayed as a comical fat guy. In a way much like Volstagg.

Gillen and Elson have given us an Otherworld you can actually understand people wanting to preserve and protect. If there is a deliberate intention to introduce a Tolkienesque playground within the MU, I’d rather see it based on this version than Remender and Tocchini’s muddled, muddy (both visually and narratively) attempt from a few months back. All in all, a great piece of comicbook storytelling and a much – needed tonic for us demoralised Captain Britain/Marvel UK fans

If you don't mind what was the Remender and Tocchini story you are referring to? Could you please give me a brief summary of it?

.
As to Merlyn's Otherworld being a parallel earth, that's never been asserted as far as I can remember; I think you may be getting confused with the Earth that Saturnyne and the D.D.C. were originally based on, sometimes known as 'the Hub' (and this is where the 616 designation for the mainstream Marvel Earth comes from, btw; it was never used as, or intended to be, a categorisation for all the parallels in the Omniverse, just the ones the D.D.C. oversaw, which might well have been finite in number). As for Merlyn, it's already been explained upthread that he's the same Merlin of Arthur's court, apart from a period when he was briefly usurped by an impostor.
.

I thought in one of the handbooks at least it suggested Merlyn was a combination of his Merlyn/Merlins from different realities. It was to explain why the Merlyn who ran the Starlight Citadel was so different from the Merlin of Arthurian lore. Also, in the MI: 13 series the way Merlin spoke and his different look seem to imply he was closer to the traditional depictions of MERLIN and less MERLYN as if the two were somehow different.

[Rosebunse]

When it comes to Otherworld, I just accept what the writer gives me. As many of you have pointed out, Otherworld could very well just be so big that it has a ton to visit. Or it could be a dream-landscape. It's hard to know.

But as long as they do a good job of it, I'm happy. The difference between Gillen and Remender is that Remender is just better with Sci-fi than high fantasy, which is what Otherworld requires.

[Gallifrey]

The Dagda, like a lot of other surviving Irish Mythology, is surprisingly different from other similar gods. Whereas most fertility gods, protector gods, and/or father gods are portrayed as serious and physically impressive the Dagda has always been portrayed as a comical fat guy. In a way much like Volstagg.

Yeah, Elson looks to have copied his look directly from his entry in Marvel’s Encyclopedia Mythologica. It’s perhaps worth noting that, like the Asgardians, Marvel’s Tuatha aren’t a particularly faithful portrayal; they’re actually a merging of characters from the Irish and British branches of Celtic mythology, although some of them already had counterparts in both branches, e.g. Leir/Llyr and Nuada/Nudd. They’ve also tinkered with some of the gods’ attributes, so that Caber’s now used as the Tuatha’s equivalent of Mercury/Hermes, and Leir is represented as the Tuatha’s version of Thor. And then there’s Herne, who isn’t part of Celtic mythology at all originally. But I don't think it's been suggested that he's a member of the Tuatha yet.

If you don't mind what was the Remender and Tocchini story you are referring to? Could you please give me a brief summary of it?

I’d prefer not to, if you don’t mind; it’s one of the reasons why Captain Britain fans are so demoralised at present. It ran in Uncanny X Force 19 – 23 and concerns Fantomex being arrested by the Captain Britain Corps and taken to Otherworld to stand trial for killing Kid Apocalypse (no, it didn’t make much sense to us at the time, either) and ends with CB being forced by his sister to kill his brother. Otherworld is really only used as a backdrop for this story, the only aspect of it that’s really featured is the Corps, and they’re portrayed pretty inaccurately anyway. The Pendragons and the Tuatha don’t appear. Unless you’re a major X – fan (which I’m guessing you’re not if you haven’t read it already) or an Otherworld completist, I wouldn’t recommend it. In fact, I’d get my money back from Marvel if I could.

I thought in one of the handbooks at least it suggested Merlyn was a combination of his Merlyn/Merlins from different realities. It was to explain why the Merlyn who ran the Starlight Citadel was so different from the Merlin of Arthurian lore. Also, in the MI: 13 series the way Merlin spoke and his different look seem to imply he was closer to the traditional depictions of MERLIN and less MERLYN as if the two were somehow different.

I think we’re pretty much agreeing about this, but if there’s any confusion I’d recommend nipping over to the ‘Britain Prevails’ thread, where Loki has given a comprehensive summary of Merlyn’s status in the MU on page 78.

When it comes to Otherworld, I just accept what the writer gives me. As many of you have pointed out, Otherworld could very well just be so big that it has a ton to visit. Or it could be a dream-landscape. It's hard to know.

I think you’re right in suggesting it’s got elements of both.

[Soundrave]

Yeah, Elson looks to have copied his look directly from his entry in Marvel’s Encyclopedia Mythologica.

Yes, but while the Dagda's physical appearance in JiM copied his appearance from the Encyclopeda Mythologica . . .

. . . the Dagda's physical appearance in the Encyclopedia Mythologica copied his first appearance in 1988's Thor #398 . . .

What's cool about the Dagda (in both the real-world myths and the Marvel interpretations), though, is that while he has a gruff and slovenly appearance, he's an extremely skilled wizard adept at druid spells and enchantments. It would be cool to have him cross paths with Volstagg some day . . .

[Gallifrey]

[QUOTE=Soundrave;15314202]Yes, but while the Dagda's physical appearance in JiM copied his appearance from the Encyclopeda Mythologica . . .

QUOTE]

Well, at least Caber's perm's finally dropped .

[Rosebunse]

I didn't realize just how many fans Otherworld has...

[strathcona]

I have mentioned before that, while I enjoy JiM, I didn't really see what all the fuss was about once I started to pick this title up after FI. It was very good, but not as great as everyone was saying. However, this issue blew me away. THIS is fantastic. I have always said I wanted to see Marvel give some focus to Otherworld and tie it all together. Looks like we might get that here (though I would still love to see a book that tells the 616 version of the Arthurian legend, from start to finish, incorporating as much of the stuff that has already touched upon it as they can). I cannot wait for the next issue... I want it NOW!

[Loki]

Yes, but while the Dagda's physical appearance in JiM copied his appearance from the Encyclopeda Mythologica . . .

Well, at least Caber's perm's finally dropped .

That wasn't a perm. He was standing next to Leir. Guy's a human Van de Graff generator.

[Post Monster]

This is by far and away the best thing I've read in a long, long time. Looking at this run now, I have to say I think I can see the shape of the future for superhero comics when reading JiM. It's not about guys in costumes beating each other against walls, though it has some of that in it. There are rich ideas that can be appreciated and explored. There's genuine character development that's not being shoehorned. There are less stereotypical villains in it and more forces of nature and difficult situations that have to be worked through. Sometimes they can't be worked through directly. JiM really feels like a graphic novel and not so much like a superhero comic, while keeping all the things that I like about superhero comics.

[steve2275]

im all about elsons art right now

[strathcona]

JiM really feels like a graphic novel and not so much like a superhero comic, while keeping all the things that I like about superhero comics.

Graphic Novels are just a format for comic books, not a genre like a superhero comics.