What If.....Ditko stayed on ASM??

[Kevinroc]

When did Stan Lee say that? I find it hard to believe he said that, as it is so demonstrably false.

-Brian

Romita said that Stan Lee couldn't remember if Mary Jane was supposed to be beautiful or hideous when it came time to introduce her. Romita did his research and found that she had been described as "very beautiful," so he used Ann-Margret and her character from "Bye Bye Birdie" as his inspiration for Mary Jane.

(From 2001's Comic Creators on Spider-Man.)

[Brian Cronin]

Romita said that Stan Lee couldn't remember if Mary Jane was supposed to be beautiful or hideous when it came time to introduce her. Romita did his research and found that she had been described as "very beautiful," so he used Ann-Margret and her character from "Bye Bye Birdie" as his inspiration for Mary Jane.

(From 2001's Comic Creators on Spider-Man.)

Oh, okay, thanks. THAT I can totally see. That he didn't remember. Not that he was undecided (because, as you mention, he obviously had already decided).

-Brian

[Venomous Mask]

Ditko's final ASM stories were relatively forgettable. The Romita era, both in terms of story and art, were a big breath of fresh air.

[Xenon]

When did Stan Lee say that? I find it hard to believe he said that, as it is so demonstrably false.

-Brian

See Kevin's post. I perhaps should have been clearer.

It doesn't contradict Stan'e statements. In fact, Stan's statements give you a good idea of why Ditko would want to leave. John Byrne left Uncanny X-Men for similar reasons. On X-Men, Byrne gained nearly the same level of control as Ditko did where Byrne would control what a given issue would look like, but like Stan Lee, Chris Claremont would have the final say on what would happen because he'd be scripting the book. So for instance, if Stan Lee says that Gwen is to be "the girl," eventually Ditko would have to give in since Lee would be writing her as "the girl" in the comic. Byrne would draw the issue one way and Claremont would add lines that contradicted Byrne's intent and Byrne would have to change future issues to fit Claremont's changes. Kirby had the same deal on Fantastic Four. Kirby would draw X, Lee would write X as Y and Kirby would then have to re-draw future issues to make them match Lee's changes.

The same almost certainly happened with Ditko on Spider-Man, as well (it would have to, with the way they worked on the book - in fact, unlike Claremont and Byrne and Lee and Kirby, since there was no communication, what else could Lee do BUT do it like that?), which was one of the many reasons why Ditko left the book, that he didn't have "total control."

-Brian

I mean, Stan has made comments about designing the CHARACTER of Gwen. not picking her out and saying "this is the one, do it". But I'm not sure we're disagreeing? I'm simply saying that Ditko couldn't have had complete control based on things Stan had said, and you're also saying that he didn't have complete control. That is the argument that I objected to in the previous post, that Ditko had total control from 25 onward. Not that Ditko wasn't plotting things, because I know at least on some issues he has a plot credit and that's the minimum, of course).

I suppose it's also worth noting that I view that entire era as sorta weird because Stan simply won't talk about it (he says he doesn't remember, though I'm not sure how much I exactly believe that). We have Ditko's side and we have Romita's take on it from a deposition, but as I understand it everything is based on those two things. And that makes me a little suspicious, since Romita was not directly involved in anything and Ditko, no offense, is the one who stormed off in a bout of righteous indignation (although Ditko apparently says Lee broke contract first, for what it's worth), which makes his particular take on it a little suspect to me. Not saying he's lying, I've just seen enough disputes to know that one party's recollection of a situation isn't always the whole picture.

[Mr. NickerNacker]

This is contradictory with things that Stan has said in the past, at least about designing Gwen to be "the girl", as well as his comments about moving the character along too fast and how he wouldn't do that again had he known the success Spider-Man was going to be (and graduating College was actually the only progress made while Stan was on the book).

I don’t think I’m aware of what you are referring to about “designing Gwen to be “the girl.”” Could you bring me up to speed on this?

As for the other contradictory things that Stan has said, well it’s true. Just like how in a 1998 interview with Comic Book Marketplace, Stan says that he gave Ditko the idea for the sequence of Spidey lifting the heavy machinery in issue #33. But when Ditko spoke up about how this was impossible, Stan now makes sure to say, “this had nothing to do with me, this was all Steve’s idea” (quote from Stan in the 2007 documentary In Search of Steve Ditko). So it is difficult to take in what Stan says now. Yeah he says he wouldn’t move the character along too fast if he could to do it again, but Ditko is the one who plotted the issue of Peter graduating high school (you said College, but I think you meant high school, Peter sorta finished college during Wolfman’s run).

It also doesn't make much sense, since if Ditko had total control of the book, there'd be no reason for him to leave after 39. They're not going to give him control of the book for a YEAR and then suddenly develop a problem with it.

This is why no one knows why Ditko left. He just didn’t leave Spider-Man, he also left Dr. Strange. He could have left Marvel over any other reason. Who’s to say it was specifically about the Spider-Man feature. Maybe he wanted a higher page rate, but wasn’t going to get it, or maybe he wanted royalties from the upcoming Spider-Man animated series. Maybe he was verbally promised he would get these things from Martin Goodman, but didn’t get them. Maybe it had nothing to do with money. Who knows? Nobody but Ditko knows. It could have been for any number of reasons.

It doesn't contradict Stan'e statements. In fact, Stan's statements give you a good idea of why Ditko would want to leave. John Byrne left Uncanny X-Men for similar reasons. On X-Men, Byrne gained nearly the same level of control as Ditko did where Byrne would control what a given issue would look like, but like Stan Lee, Chris Claremont would have the final say on what would happen because he'd be scripting the book. So for instance, if Stan Lee says that Gwen is to be "the girl," eventually Ditko would have to give in since Lee would be writing her as "the girl" in the comic. Byrne would draw the issue one way and Claremont would add lines that contradicted Byrne's intent and Byrne would have to change future issues to fit Claremont's changes. Kirby had the same deal on Fantastic Four. Kirby would draw X, Lee would write X as Y and Kirby would then have to re-draw future issues to make them match Lee's changes.

The same almost certainly happened with Ditko on Spider-Man, as well (it would have to, with the way they worked on the book - in fact, unlike Claremont and Byrne and Lee and Kirby, since there was no communication, what else could Lee do BUT do it like that?), which was one of the many reasons why Ditko left the book, that he didn't have "total control."

-Brian

This did happen to Ditko, but Ditko continued on to plot the book the way he wanted. For example, in issue #30 Lee scripted the Masterplanner’s henchmen as though they were working for the Cat throughout the issue. During these henchmen’s crimes, they would be reporting into their boss through the radio, who the readers never see, but Lee scripted them as though they were talking to the Cat. But by issues end they are totally forgotten once the Cat is caught. What were they stealing for the Cat? That part of the plot doesn’t make sense. Lee scripted them as working for the Cat, but Ditko didn’t plot it that way, so he continued to plot the way he wanted to tell the story he was foreshadowing to in the coming issues. I’m not saying Lee did this on purpose or anything; Lee just didn’t know what Ditko had planned for the following issues. This is what happens when they were not communicating with each other.

[Xenon]

I don’t think I’m aware of what you are referring to about “designing Gwen to be “the girl.”” Could you bring me up to speed on this?

As for the other contradictory things that Stan has said, well it’s true. Just like how in a 1998 interview with Comic Book Marketplace, Stan says that he gave Ditko the idea for the sequence of Spidey lifting the heavy machinery in issue #33. But when Ditko spoke up about how this was impossible, Stan now makes sure to say, “this had nothing to do with me, this was all Steve’s idea” (quote from Stan in the 2007 documentary In Search of Steve Ditko). So it is difficult to take in what Stan says now. Yeah he says he wouldn’t move the character along too fast if he could to do it again, but Ditko is the one who plotted the issue of Peter graduating high school (you said College, but I think you meant high school, Peter sorta finished college during Wolfman’s run).

Stan has made comments in the past about how the purpose of introducing Gwen was always that she would be "the girl" and was written as such. Like, Harry and Gwen weren't just randomly drawn and then later molded for a different purpose, they were introduced to be the things they became in the end. Of course, it was that decision that eventually led to him finding her kinda boring and letting them kill her, which is where the conversation was brought up, so not much detail was brought up that I can remember. But I read about this like a year ago, so my memory is a bit hazy on the details. I think I read like two different versions of it that said the same thing though. Eh. Sorry I can't be more specific.

As for the rest of it, this might sound a little strange, but Stan is not a trustworthy source. I know, I'm relying on him making contradictory statements, but follow me for a second. Stan has, as far as I know, never argued or disagreed with the premise of any question asked of him. He just doesn't do it. No matter what you ask him about, he will always find a positive spin on it. And if you ask him something later that's the opposite, he'll spin it the other direction. There are multiple examples of this. You ask him about the video game, he'll say he hasn't played it (or any video game), but it's the greatest thing ever and its neat for X reason. OMD? Brave decision to keep things moving. People mad about splitting them up? Oops! It was all a dream. If you're asking him questions for a Steve Ditko documentary and telling him Steve Ditko says he came up with the idea for the Kingpin, I'm sure he would have come back with a response of "Stevie was an inspiring guy that had an impact long after he left the title" or something. Honestly, I think it's why he won't talk about that era when Steve left. I don't think it's because he really can't remember, I think it's because to talk about it means either being negative about Ditko or being negative about himself. He can't spin that into a positive situation, so he just "forgets".

So for me, the only thing the contradictions he says extemporaneously do is make me suspicious. Did they happen just like he says? Maybe not. But that it's his first inclination is interesting. Plus, it's worth noting that if Stan was still doing all the scripting, it can hardly be said that Ditko had total control. The script is a tremendous part of the story.

This is why no one knows why Ditko left. He just didn’t leave Spider-Man, he also left Dr. Strange. He could have left Marvel over any other reason. Who’s to say it was specifically about the Spider-Man feature. Maybe he wanted a higher page rate, but wasn’t going to get it, or maybe he wanted royalties from the upcoming Spider-Man animated series. Maybe he was verbally promised he would get these things from Martin Goodman, but didn’t get them. Maybe it had nothing to do with money. Who knows? Nobody but Ditko knows. It could have been for any number of reasons.

All sources now suggest it was the clash between Ditko and Lee, which makes sense, since Lee was the EiC. But even that is suspect if they "never" talked. I suspect there is some hyperbole going on here.

[whiteshark]

Well a lot of the merchandising came when Romita was on the book. There really wasn't any merchandise during Ditko's era (only on the mail-in items through the MMMS, which was Ditko’s Spidey). Since Ditko was no longer a part of the company (therefore Marvel distancing themselves from Ditko) and Romita's design of Spidey was what was in the current books of the time, Romita's Spidey was used (synergy). Had Ditko stayed and Romita never came on, then it’s reasonable to say that Ditko's Spidey would have been on the merchandise, therefore entering the mainstream. Also, how do you know that Spidey wouldn’t have become as popular? One can't really say how popular Spidey would have become if Ditko stayed on. The book was hot and kept gaining new readers every month during his run, so one can’t say whether or not the book would have been just as popular as Romita’s run. We just won’t know!

There was no merchandising while Dikto was in Asm,but my point was that in the present many merchandising which have classic spidey illustrations are from romita designs.
All though as you said if dikto stayed in asm,his designs would had been important in the merchandisign.
From a objective point of view.one could argue romita just have a more popular art style that dikto,just look at how popular became the comics illustrated by romita (amazing spider-man,daredevil) compared to the comics illustrated by dikto(doctor strange,captain universe)

[David Walton]

I doubt Spidey would have been as successful if Ditko stayed on or if Romita, Sr. had kickstarted the title instead.

The transition gave ASM a really cool feeling of forward movement in Peter's life.

Personally, I think Ditko had hit his peak with the Master Planner Saga, though who's to say whether inspiration would have struck again? But the characters were becoming thoroughly set in their ways and not very likeable.

[Xenon]

I doubt Spidey would have been as successful if Ditko stayed on or if Romita, Sr. had kickstarted the title instead.

The transition gave ASM a really cool feeling of forward movement in Peter's life.

Personally, I think Ditko had hit his peak with the Master Planner Saga, though who's to say whether inspiration would have struck again? But the characters were becoming thoroughly set in their ways and not very likeable.

The transition idea is a good one, and very noteworthy. The art style gradually changed along with Peter's life. It's a nice touch and a visual way to signify growing up. Interesting.


The set in their ways thing I'm not quite as sure about. Ditko did push through several changes, and the relationship with his college people were changing even while he was on the book. Would it have gone in the exact same direction? I dunno. Hard to say when we don't even really know how the book was really written in the later issues.

[David Walton]

Ditko's final ASM stories were relatively forgettable. The Romita era, both in terms of story and art, were a big breath of fresh air.

Yeah, Lee/Romita, Sr. knocked it out of the park with ASM 39-40.

I'm not sure if Ditko felt he had anywhere to go once Peter seemed strangely reconciled to his fate. He breaks it off with Betty in the most deliberately dickish way possible and moves on.

Romita, Sr. injected a new balance to the title, giving Peter a supporting cast and romantic interests to struggle for (and against).

[Xenon]

Yeah, Lee/Romita, Sr. knocked it out of the park with ASM 39-40.

I'm not sure if Ditko felt he had anywhere to go once Peter seemed strangely reconciled to his fate. He breaks it off with Betty in the most deliberately dickish way possible and moves on.

Romita, Sr. injected a new balance to the title, giving Peter a supporting cast and romantic interests to struggle for (and against).

You're misremembering a bit.

1) Peter and Betty's break-up wasn't dramatic at all. I suspect you're thinking of the way he tried to get rid of her around 200. In the 30s, Betty just left for a while and when she came back Peter and her just realized there feelings didn't go that deep. Really, it was quite an amicable split. I mean, after all the whole Betty is a two-timer dating Ned behind Peter's back thing. But that started way earlier.
2) That supporting cast and Romantic interest were introduced by Ditko. Peter Parker Graduates in 31, and is in college by 34. Ditko's the one who both established the initial relationships and set Gwen down the path of being the girl (or, at least, he was a part of it with Stan), although that pacing may have changed after Romita joined the title (I suspect if he DID have input, Gwen wouldn't have mellowed nearly as quickly if at all, though we might have gotten more of her personality, so eh...)

[Mister Mets]

You're misremembering a bit.

1) Peter and Betty's break-up wasn't dramatic at all. I suspect you're thinking of the way he tried to get rid of her around 200. In the 30s, Betty just left for a while and when she came back Peter and her just realized there feelings didn't go that deep. Really, it was quite an amicable split. I mean, after all the whole Betty is a two-timer dating Ned behind Peter's back thing. But that started way earlier.
2) That supporting cast and Romantic interest were introduced by Ditko. Peter Parker Graduates in 31, and is in college by 34. Ditko's the one who both established the initial relationships and set Gwen down the path of being the girl (or, at least, he was a part of it with Stan), although that pacing may have changed after Romita joined the title (I suspect if he DID have input, Gwen wouldn't have mellowed nearly as quickly if at all, though we might have gotten more of her personality, so eh...)

It was an amicable split when John Romita Sr was on the title.

It was more dramatic when Ditko was plotting the book.

[Xenon]

It was an amicable split when John Romita Sr was on the title.

It was more dramatic when Ditko was plotting the book.

It seems I was also misremembering a bit.

I thought Betty had come back before Ditko left, but this turns out not to be the case. Ditko had Peter deliberately push Betty away by, as Mr. Walton suggested, kinda being a dick. But the thing that actually "broke them up", if you want a specific event, was Betty seeing Peter dramatically injured after the Master Planner arc. This causes Betty to freak out and leave.....and that's the last we see of her with Ditko writing the book.

It was just a very mellow subtle break-up, even with her disappearing. At least it felt to me. In any case, I was incorrect about the timing of things, so it was important for me to acknowledge the differences.

[Venom]

As much as I respect what Steve Ditko contributed to Spider-Man I think if he stayed on the quality of the storylines would probably have started to slowly go downhill as the stories he wanted to tell just weren't in line with what Stan Lee wanted to tell and also the fact that by the last few issues Ditko worked on he and Stan weren't even talking to each other and had to communicate through other people in their office. One such incident as well whether it was true or not was the identity of the Green Goblin. Stan wanted it to be Norman Osborn, but Ditko wanted it to be a new character as he thought having it be the father of someone Peter knew was unrealistic and odd, but Stan thought it was great as it added that dynamic and soap opera feel which really started to kick in after Ditko left.

[Dr.J.]

Ditkos spidy hooked me on marvel, but as much as I love his spidys, romita took him to much higher hights.he could draw women VERY well, from all the romance books he did.A real plus in the comic biz! those who walked away after ditko left, missed out on a lot.Spidy did just great without him, much better then ditko did without spidy.