Why Can't The Amazons Have Technology?

**Maximum Impact** · 05-31-2012, 09:00 PM

Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman had almost as many sci-fi elements as Superman. The Amazons had ray guns and spaceships, Purple Healing Rays and Mental Radios. Why aren't they allowed to have advanced technology now? Post-Crisis we had worked our way up to advanced military ordinance, including tanks, machine guns and bazookas and the more fantastic Hephaestus Cannon and the Purple Death Ray. Since then we've gotten backwards, back woods, primitive and archaic swords and shields and catapults and bows and arrows. They don't even use magic to defeat their opponents. Why is that? It's almost as if the powers that be feel threatened if the Amazons are too powerful.

During Perez's run standard rank and file Amazons were much stronger than baseline humans. They were capable of breaking the chains that bound them and bashing in the heads of their captors with the iron balls attached to them. They were able to roll giant boulders uphill and perform Bullets & Bracelets almost as efficiently as Wonder Woman herself, but now we see no evidence of that. Lately we've seen the Amazons Attack Amazons, the Odyssey Amazons, the Flashpoint Amazons, the nu-52 Amazons and the AME-Comi Amazons and none of them have been on par with the classic pre-Crisis versions, why is that?

In order for newbies to care about them, the Amazons have to be formidable. They should quickly annihilate their enemies and break bones and slash throats. DC keeps pushing the point that they're mythical warriors from a martial culture...why not enable them to be competitive with modern technology? I don't get why -after it was such a vital part of Pre-Crisis continuity- we can't have spaceships and ray guns?

**americanwonder** · 05-31-2012, 09:22 PM

I don't really understand it either, Maximum Impact, and it does frustrate me. I guess I chalk much of it up to limited imagination in an insular market. "Amazons are mythical and can't have sci-fi mixing with mythical." On the other hand, the focus on mythical does seperate/distinquish her somewhat from Superman/Supergirl and other sci-fi/technologically heavy characters. But I think it really boils down to DiDio's lack of vision for WW.

**Bluewing_A23** · 05-31-2012, 09:56 PM

Diversity, I guess. There are Kryptonian, Atlantean, and lots of Aliens from the GL books. Not to mention that most heroes are technological-based. Beside, ones cannot say for all. The reason why I like the Amazons is because there are no technologies involved.

**Zagreus** · 05-31-2012, 10:08 PM

I think it's just hard to do coherent world building with sci fi, magic, and myth all thrown together because you have to find a coherent story for how this society came to be this way. With a myth based society, that's low tech, its easier. If its all high tech, its easier. If it's like Thor and its "the work of godly science indistinguishable from magic" its also easy. But there are a lot of world building elements to WW that are problematic.

Compare WW to Thor, for example. The Asgardians are off of earth. They can be filled with as many uber-powerful folks with their "godly-science/magic" as you please, and they have threats to fight with it: frost giants, fire giants, and the like. They ARE the gods. Thor is one of the mightiest of them, but there are others that trump him in certain ways.

Now we come to WW, The amazons are earth bound. They are not fighting gods, and there needs to be beings of higher power than they are to worship. If they have the uber science/magic/tech/etc. it seems less plausible they would be devout if their gods are flesh and blood entities which clearly they are in this telling. So the Amazons must have feet of clay if their gods are equally creatures of flesh (writ large, but still living beings). More powerful than men, certainly, but limited. So Azz made his choices. If P.I. was a wonderland, why would they be honoring these petty beings...? Azz's story was focused on the gods and making them interesting, as that is where he saw greater story potential (I'd wager he's right- the incarnations of War, Strife, Love, etc, etc, bring to mind more interesting tales than the amazons- especially when Diana has blood ties to them.)

This is all very clear to me. So, in order for this to work, the old idea of Paradise Island being a utopia had to be discarded. A follows B. Much to many fans chagrin. I don't mind. I always thought the amazons were boring, and would rather see the machinations of the gods and how Diana deals with them.

**Legato** · 05-31-2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Zagreus

I think it's just hard to do coherent world building with sci fi, magic, and myth all thrown together because you have to find a coherent story for how this society came to be this way. With a myth based society, that's low tech, its easier. If its all high tech, its easier. If it's like Thor and its "the work of godly science indistinguishable from magic" its also easy. But there are a lot of world building elements to WW that are problematic.

Compare WW to Thor, for example. The Asgardians are off of earth. They can be filled with as many uber-powerful folks with their "godly-science/magic" as you please, and they have threats to fight with it: frost giants, fire giants, and the like. They ARE the gods. Thor is one of the mightiest of them, but there are others that trump him in certain ways.

Now we come to WW, The amazons are earth bound. They are not fighting gods, and there needs to be beings of higher power than they are to worship. If they have the uber science/magic/tech/etc. it seems less plausible they would be devout if their gods are flesh and blood entities which clearly they are in this telling. So the Amazons must have feet of clay if their gods are equally creatures of flesh (writ large, but still living beings). More powerful than men, certainly, but limited. So Azz made his choices. If P.I. was a wonderland, why would they be honoring these petty beings...? Azz's story was focused on the gods and making them interesting, as that is where he saw greater story potential (I'd wager he's right- the incarnations of War, Strife, Love, etc, etc, bring to mind more interesting tales than the amazons- especially when Diana has blood ties to them.)

This is all very clear to me. So, in order for this to work, the old idea of Paradise Island being a utopia had to be discarded. A follows B. Much to many fans chagrin. I don't mind. I always thought the amazons were boring, and would rather see the machinations of the gods and how Diana deals with them.

I'd rather the writers try to put an effort in making a character of a group of characters interesting than take them out completly.

**Maximum Impact** · 05-31-2012, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zagreus

I think it's just hard to do coherent world building with sci fi, magic, and myth all thrown together because you have to find a coherent story for how this society came to be this way. With a myth based society, that's low tech, its easier. If its all high tech, its easier. If it's like Thor and its "the work of godly science indistinguishable from magic" its also easy. But there are a lot of world building elements to WW that are problematic.

Compare WW to Thor, for example. The Asgardians are off of earth. They can be filled with as many uber-powerful folks with their "godly-science/magic" as you please, and they have threats to fight with it: frost giants, fire giants, and the like. They ARE the gods. Thor is one of the mightiest of them, but there are others that trump him in certain ways.

Now we come to WW, The amazons are earth bound. They are not fighting gods, and there needs to be beings of higher power than they are to worship. If they have the uber science/magic/tech/etc. it seems less plausible they would be devout if their gods are flesh and blood entities which clearly they are in this telling. So the Amazons must have feet of clay if their gods are equally creatures of flesh (writ large, but still living beings). More powerful than men, certainly, but limited. So Azz made his choices. If P.I. was a wonderland, why would they be honoring these petty beings...? Azz's story was focused on the gods and making them interesting, as that is where he saw greater story potential (I'd wager he's right- the incarnations of War, Strife, Love, etc, etc, bring to mind more interesting tales than the amazons- especially when Diana has blood ties to them.)

This is all very clear to me. So, in order for this to work, the old idea of Paradise Island being a utopia had to be discarded. A follows B. Much to many fans chagrin. I don't mind. I always thought the amazons were boring, and would rather see the machinations of the gods and how Diana deals with them.

I think myth and magic go together like macaroni and cheese, peanut butter and jelly, steak and potatoes and capes and superheroes.

**americanwonder** · 05-31-2012, 10:35 PM

Jedi and light-speed space travel seems to work out ok.

**Outside_85** · 06-01-2012, 08:45 AM

I think it waters down the concept if you give the Amazons loads of super-science shenanigans while still trying to depict them as time locked into the ancient world (like the old question, why use a spear or a bow when you can have a laser gun?). As good as Rucka's run was, I think it was a pity he brought back so much of all the tech items that it ended up being the last thing we saw of them under his pen. I would however be completely fine with some of the items, like the Purple Healing Ray, was a blend of magic and science.
Ultimately however I'd say Perez did the right thing by removing most of it, as compensation for not being as technologically advanced as the rest of the world, your rank and file Amazon can take entire platoons of men apart with her bare hands and have nearly supernatural skills with what weapons they do have.

**SteveGus** · 06-01-2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Outside_85

I think it waters down the concept if you give the Amazons loads of super-science shenanigans while still trying to depict them as time locked into the ancient world (like the old question, why use a spear or a bow when you can have a laser gun?). As good as Rucka's run was, I think it was a pity he brought back so much of all the tech items that it ended up being the last thing we saw of them under his pen. I would however be completely fine with some of the items, like the Purple Healing Ray, was a blend of magic and science.

You have a point. The most important thing for me about the Amazons is that they need to be badasses. To at least some extent, this is emphasized when they're shown fighting with Iron Age technology.

**Dr. Hurt** · 06-01-2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Zagreus

I think it's just hard to do coherent world building with sci fi, magic, and myth all thrown together because you have to find a coherent story for how this society came to be this way. With a myth based society, that's low tech, its easier. If its all high tech, its easier. If it's like Thor and its "the work of godly science indistinguishable from magic" its also easy. But there are a lot of world building elements to WW that are problematic.

Compare WW to Thor, for example. The Asgardians are off of earth. They can be filled with as many uber-powerful folks with their "godly-science/magic" as you please, and they have threats to fight with it: frost giants, fire giants, and the like. They ARE the gods. Thor is one of the mightiest of them, but there are others that trump him in certain ways.

Now we come to WW, The amazons are earth bound. They are not fighting gods, and there needs to be beings of higher power than they are to worship. If they have the uber science/magic/tech/etc. it seems less plausible they would be devout if their gods are flesh and blood entities which clearly they are in this telling. So the Amazons must have feet of clay if their gods are equally creatures of flesh (writ large, but still living beings). More powerful than men, certainly, but limited. So Azz made his choices. If P.I. was a wonderland, why would they be honoring these petty beings...? Azz's story was focused on the gods and making them interesting, as that is where he saw greater story potential (I'd wager he's right- the incarnations of War, Strife, Love, etc, etc, bring to mind more interesting tales than the amazons- especially when Diana has blood ties to them.)

This is all very clear to me. So, in order for this to work, the old idea of Paradise Island being a utopia had to be discarded. A follows B. Much to many fans chagrin. I don't mind. I always thought the amazons were boring, and would rather see the machinations of the gods and how Diana deals with them.

Great post. I was about to write something like that.

Like Zagreus said, the problem lies with WW mixing high tech, with magic and ancient weapons. You cant have everything. Also, there needs to be a way for all these things to work together seemlessly. This was never the case with WW. They would use swords and spears to fight but they'd also have an invisible jet. They'd have ancient greek technology, they would forge swords with their hammers but they'd also have microchips and planes. If you have planes, you also have industry and machines building your swords. Hell... you dont even have swords.

One could say "well what about the jedi", well they have powers and high tech swords. They dont use metal swords and arrows, and besides, they're supposed to be monks, cut off from the modern way of life. However, their bases, means of transport, Academy, etc are all modern Star Wars tech. They're just monks. So the Amazons have to choose too. They re either stuck in ancient greece or the middle ages, or they have modern tech, but all out modern tech. Modern homes, modern means of transport, modern everything.

I personally like this ancient greece thing they re having right now. It also seems like they have magic weapons from Hephaestus so they should be formidable. I wouldnt mind if they had advanced a little bit from there to Da Vinci type of tech. Imagine flying triremes tied to balloons and stuff.

**Sk8maven** · 06-01-2012, 10:05 AM

(after reading lists of Reasons Why Not)
It does, however, have Extremely Unfortunate Implications, along the lines that women are nothing, have nothing and can do nothing without ***MEN!!!***

What a horrible dead end for a character that was originally created as a symbol of the empowerment of women!

**majormcmeat** · 06-01-2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Sk8maven

(after reading lists of Reasons Why Not)
It does, however, have Extremely Unfortunate Implications, along the lines that women are nothing, have nothing and can do nothing without ***MEN!!!***

What a horrible dead end for a character that was originally created as a symbol of the empowerment of women!

That's absurd. They didn't progress as a society because they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Of course their society stagnated given their numbers and the limited resources of the island.
Their sex is completely incidental.

**Mecegirl** · 06-01-2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by majormcmeat

That's absurd. They didn't progress as a society because they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Of course their society stagnated given their numbers and the limited resources of the island.
Their sex is completely incidental.

If we are to take Hephaestus at his word they left the island to mate. Surely they would have seen something to inspire technological advancement.

BTW if Gorilla city exists (have they mentioned it yet?) and they have advanced technology expect me to throw a fit.

**dreyga2000** · 06-01-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mecegirl

If we are to take Hephaestus at his word they left the island to mate. Surely they would have seen something to inspire technological advancement.

BTW if Gorilla city exists (have they mentioned it yet?) and they have advanced technology expect me to throw a fit.

They do exist and have no advanced tech...