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  1. #106
    Member Empress96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    We sugar-coating Heph, now? "I was just trying to benevolently teach a valuable lesson on how others might feel to be powerless." Please. It was straight up vengance. Yes, Aphrodite* was cheating on him, and he tried to shame her. No benevolence. More vengance.

    Now, I'm not saying he wasn't wronged by others, that other gods/goddesses haven't done worse, nor that he is always a bad guy. But he had his less than benevolent moments.

    *Don't some of the stories tell that Aphrodite, not haivng much say in the matter, was given in marriage to Heph?
    Well, Hephaestus did try to rape Athena at one point, if that counts.

    Edit: Yes Aphrodite in some stories was given to Hephaestus as a bride in return that Hera would be let go from the scepter she was trapped in, I believe.
    Last edited by Empress96; 06-02-2012 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #107
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    It was deceptive vengance. He was planning on never letting her out. Dyonisos had to get him drunk and drag him back to Mt. Olympus.



    Perhaps Aphrodite didn't like being traded as property?



    Is anything a criminal action for a Greek god? For the rest of us, trapping/kidnapping one's wife and lover in a net is a criminal act.



    He may generally be a "good guy." But that isn't the whole picture.

    In both cases: he harbors a grudge, uses deception, seeks vengance. Now, if someone in this story were going to harbor a grudge, use some deception, and play the other Greek gods against each other for the sake of personal vengance, maybe, just maybe, it could be Hephy? Just a thought.
    - Again, he has been abandonned and crippled to life (to eternal life even) as a direct result of her actions. A woman that would do that today would take years of prison as a punishment. Here was out in a few days. I'd say she had it easy.

    -Never said Aphrodite didn't have good reasons to go see elsewhere.

    -Well, when i compare trying to rape a nymph (Appolo), turning a girl into a spider (Athena....note how i don't use the baddest gods like Ares, or even Zeus), killing a man because he accidentally saw you naked (Artemis), and catching your cheating wife and her lover on the act, keeping there for a while, and eventually letting them go, I know which one I would consider the least criminal of the bunch.

    -That would imply he have something to gain from it. I could buy if WW was still fighting Hera, but why would he want anything to happen to Hades, against whom he has no real grudge?
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  3. #108
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Yeah, makes sense, but then again, people working in factories act mostly in automatic mode (with the automited machines and all that). That doesn't make them slaves in the conventional sense of the word. You could argue there are similarities, but they're not considered as such. Which raises the question: are Hephaesteus' workers working in worse conditions than workers in factories during the 19th century?
    It might be significant to note that some of those work practices are no illegal under child labor laws. But I think we can agree that muscle memory and subverting a persons free will are different things.
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  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -That would imply he have something to gain from it. I could buy if WW was still fighting Hera, but why would he want anything to happen to Hades, against whom he has no real grudge?
    Who said Hades is the target? Where did Zeus go, and who was involved? Zeus being gone means Hera's in a precarious position, right? Maybe he still harbors a grudge knowing she got out of his chair when they got him drunk, feeling she got off light? He's not the biggest fan of most of the Olympians, generally feeling like an outsider - maybe he wants to take over? Just fun speculation.

    I like Heph, for the most part, just pointing out that while he may be one of the "least criminal," he's still a criminal.
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  5. #110
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Who said Hades is the target? Where did Zeus go, and who was involved? Zeus being gone means Hera's in a precarious position, right? Maybe he still harbors a grudge knowing she got out of his chair when they got him drunk, feeling she got off light? He's not the biggest fan of most of the Olympians, generally feeling like an outsider - maybe he wants to take over? Just fun speculation.

    I like Heph, for the most part, just pointing out that while he may be one of the "least criminal," he's still a criminal.
    Well, I'm not quite sure the guy is quite competent enough to make Zeus disapear like that, but maybe I'm just wrong. Now, the way I understood the phrophecy in the first issue was more in the lines of "Zeus disapeared because he wants something "dirty and ireemadable" to happen", but again, I can be mistaken.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #111
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It might be significant to note that some of those work practices are no illegal under child labor laws. But I think we can agree that muscle memory and subverting a persons free will are different things.
    Well, it made it illegal for child (althought it does depend where). I'm just trying to show that things aren't always that simple to define.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #112
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, it made it illegal for child (althought it does depend where). I'm just trying to show that things aren't always that simple to define.
    Exactly. And while it might be simpler to accept that the workers are not slaves based on their comments, maybe the truth needs more examination to define.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  8. #113
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Exactly. And while it might be simpler to accept that the workers are not slaves based on their comments, maybe the truth needs more examination to define.
    Maybe. But the data we do have don't allow us to assume they are. And I doubt Azzarello is going to go back on them.
    Now, someone might, and he might show them as slaves, and that would all right, but I think the most logical course of action now is a cautious acceptance of their word.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Maybe. But the data we do have don't allow us to assume they are. And I doubt Azzarello is going to go back on them.
    Now, someone might, and he might show them as slaves, and that would all right, but I think the most logical course of action now is a cautious acceptance of their word.
    Actually I think it is very likely Azzarello will revisit them, unless he plans to leave the other Amazons as snakes.
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  10. #115
    Mark Millar Licks Goats BeccaBlast's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of Dionysos being considered the second-nicest of the Pantheon.

    We re talking about the fellow who inspires the Maenads, right? Considering what they're doing to Apollo in this book, I shudder to think what they would do with Dionysos.
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  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    We sugar-coating Heph, now? "I was just trying to benevolently teach a valuable lesson on how others might feel to be powerless." Please. It was straight up vengance. Yes, Aphrodite* was cheating on him, and he tried to shame her. No benevolence. More vengance.
    No more than you're trying to demonize him.

    Nowhere did I say it was about justice, only about teaching a lesson. Of course it was about vengeance. The Greek gods ride the line between good and evil, but some of them are mostly benevolent or malevolent. Heph in most stories just made whatever the gods wanted him to make, which makes him more neutral than most of the scheming Olympians.

    Now, I'm not saying he wasn't wronged by others, that other gods/goddesses haven't done worse, nor that he is always a bad guy. But he had his less than benevolent moments.

    *Don't some of the stories tell that Aphrodite, not haivng much say in the matter, was given in marriage to Heph?
    Actually, all I said was that Heph was mostly benevolent. No "sugar-coating" here, friend.

    And yes, there are some versions when Aphrodite is given to him...by Hera, Heph's abusive mother. Not out of concern or love for her son, but out of concern that Zeus might get his hands on Aphrodite. In other versions, Aphrodite marries him because he works late (allowing her to bone other gods) and can make her things. Either way, not a good example of Heph's bad side. Besides the Athena deal, there's very little he's done to harm others. Granted, you could argue that he makes weapons for the gods.
    Last edited by NotSuper; 06-03-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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  12. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empress96 View Post
    Well, Hephaestus did try to rape Athena at one point, if that counts.

    Edit: Yes Aphrodite in some stories was given to Hephaestus as a bride in return that Hera would be let go from the scepter she was trapped in, I believe.
    Actually, Hera got free when Hermes got Heph drunk, with the promise that he could come home.

    Aphrodite and Heph's marriage came about (in most stories) right when she appeared on Olympus. By that time, Hera and Heph had reconciled.
    Who knows? Not me. We never lost control. You're face to face. With the Man who Sold the World

  13. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I like Heph, for the most part, just pointing out that while he may be one of the "least criminal," he's still a criminal.
    Well, almost all the gods have committed murder, rape, torture, and so on.

    Prometheus is probably the only truly altruistic god.
    Who knows? Not me. We never lost control. You're face to face. With the Man who Sold the World

  14. #119
    Bored with Post Life Jason456701's Avatar
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    When I think about the fate of these workers I remember it could be worse if Exoristos is being truthful.



    So i am just going to say being with Hephaestus even if your just his workers looks pretty good with the right prospective.

  15. #120
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Every time I see something like this I am reminded of Wonder Woman looking with frustration at the movie of her life, where the producers made the Amazons in manhaters and she cant understand why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason456701 View Post
    When I think about the fate of these workers I remember it could be worse if Exoristos is being truthful.



    So i am just going to say being with Hephaestus even if your just his workers looks pretty good with the right prospective.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


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