Just read the Waid FF run from way back. Damn.

[Desaad]

I thought his run lost steam towards the end. The Galactus story wasn't very memorable and the restructured Frightful Four was a bit of a misfire. We've not seen anything of the daughter that Johnny became involved with. IMO Hickman has done far more interesting things with the Wizard and the Bentley clone that has been sort of adopted by Reed and Sue. Maybe the whole Jemas fiasco eventually took a way some Waid's enthusiasm for the title.

I don't disagree with any of this, actually. I think Hickman's take on the Wizard is much more interesting than Waid's, and I do think the series lost steam as it went on, especially post-Heaven.

But I think Waid had a much stronger grasp of what made the team function, and explored that in more interesting, resonant, allegorical ways than did Hickman. Up through the finding Ben in Heaven arc, I'd say it was a perfect run, and had a huge amount of heart.

I hated it because Waid brought back a character that hadn't been used in decades just to kill her off in one issue. Plus she looked way too old to be the Valeria last seen (not counting flashbacks) since IH #143 -144.

It worked for me. As you say, she hadn't been seen in decades -- she served no real purpose, and Waid found a purpose for her. Much better than killing off a character that is a genuine story engine.

As for the rest of the Doom, it was nice to see something different done with him. It's not my favorite Doom story of all time, but at the very least Waid was taking the character into a different direction, and one that didn't end all future story avenues (COUGHMILLARCOUGH).

At this point Doom is overexposed to the extreme, and I'm quite sick of his schtick.

[Dark Phoenix]

I need to go back and read this again but I do remember enjoying it a lot. In addition to Waid, we should not forget the awesome Mike Weiringo artwork.

[Iron Maiden]

I don't disagree with any of this, actually. I think Hickman's take on the Wizard is much more interesting than Waid's, and I do think the series lost steam as it went on, especially post-Heaven.

But I think Waid had a much stronger grasp of what made the team function, and explored that in more interesting, resonant, allegorical ways than did Hickman. Up through the finding Ben in Heaven arc, I'd say it was a perfect run, and had a huge amount of heart.

I think the other thing I have to fault his FF with is that it was way too Reed-centric and this is something a lot of writers do. He had promised some changes for Sue but we never really saw anything major done with her. I can forgive his Johnny in retrospect because he did give him a job in the corporation (again, no one mentions this anymore) But to get to that point he started him off with such a major regression that it was almost like he was the 15 year old from the Lee/Kirby era. And I mean the very beginning of the FF title. And this was a character who was married ... even though it was to a Skrull. Even the Claremont and Pacheco/Marin runs treated Johnny as a more mature character than Waid started him out. What is kind of sad is that few writers have done what Lee and Kirby did and that was continuous growth. They put Johnny in college around the same time as Peter Parker but no one seems to even bring that up anymore.

It worked for me. As you say, she hadn't been seen in decades -- she served no real purpose, and Waid found a purpose for her. Much better than killing off a character that is a genuine story engine.

But as Mechano said she did have a purpose. Read Priest's short story "Masks" that came out before Unthinkable (it's on Marvel Digital). She was one of the last links to his past and a time before his life literally went to Hell. I suspect this is why Hickman brought back Kristoff from limbo and struck up a unique relationship with Valeria Richards. I'm fine with the fact that he is practically incorrigible with some of his extreme behaviors but he becomes more compelling when you have him interacting with others instead of just the usual supervillian mode. Any writer can do that...like DeFalco

As for the rest of the Doom, it was nice to see something different done with him. It's not my favorite Doom story of all time, but at the very least Waid was taking the character into a different direction, and one that didn't end all future story avenues (COUGHMILLARCOUGH).

At this point Doom is overexposed to the extreme, and I'm quite sick of his schtick.

Well when the schtick is all that the writers exploits then I can see why you would feel that way. I guess it's because I go back to Silver Age Doom when writers like Gerry Conway, Bill Mantlo, Archie Goodwin or Roger Stern were actually doing something different without taking the extreme path that Waid did....and didn't really finish. He did the tear down but didn't give us anything new to follow it. I would have liked to have seen if he had planned a revamp and just what would he have done with Doom.

Do you think that he will use the cliche Doom for his Daredevil story? I suspect he will.

[Bone2pick]

That was...excellent. Lots of great, big ideas, but everything underscores the central conceit of the team, and of the individual members, and the book is SO full of heart.

Barring perhaps Kingdom Come, I really think this is the best thing Waid has ever written, and probably the best Fantastic Four run post Stan/Jack. I've enjoyed Hickman's run, but it honestly doesn't hold a candle (with the exception of the Galactus arc, which I did think was quite weak).

I just reread Waid's Captain America: Man Out of Time and loved it so much I decided to order something else by him, and that just so happened to be his FF vol 1. I'm stoked to dig in to his take on Marvel's super family.

[AaronStC]

Is this the Heroes Return era?

[Iron Maiden]

Is this the Heroes Return era?

No, Waid's run takes place quite a few issues after that. There was the brief and brilliant Scott Lobdell/Alan Davis intro to the relaunched FF after Onslaught, etc. followed by Claremont & Larocca and then Carlos Pacheco & Rafael Marin plotting with Jeph Loeb scripting or dialogue assisting. It was a about 60 issues into the new numbering. Then for the Unthinkable arc they went back to the original numbering, with the climatic issue being FF #500.

[Nomads1]

No, Waid's run takes place quite a few issues after that. There was the brief and brilliant Scott Lobdell/Alan Davis intro to the relaunched FF after Onslaught, etc. followed by Claremont & Larocca and then Carlos Pacheco & Rafael Marin plotting with Jeph Loeb scripting or dialogue assisting. It was a about 60 issues into the new numbering. Then for the Unthinkable arc they went back to the original numbering, with the climatic issue being FF #500.

On a side note, I actually liked Claremont and Larroca's FF. I guess the expectations were high, for him to make it a success, as he made X-Men (the cross he´ll always have to bear, I guess), but, all in all, I found it entertaining enough. Not the best ever, but a great deal far from the worst also. Pretty good, IMHO.

Peace

[Ravin' Ray]

On a side note, I actually liked Claremont and Larroca's FF.

Of course, Claremont used every opportunity he could to guest individual X-Men members as much as he can. There was even speculation on a website I read that he wanted Shadowcat to be a long-term supporting character.

[Iron Maiden]

On a side note, I actually liked Claremont and Larroca's FF. I guess the expectations were high, for him to make it a success, as he made X-Men (the cross he´ll always have to bear, I guess), but, all in all, I found it entertaining enough. Not the best ever, but a great deal far from the worst also. Pretty good, IMHO.

Peace

I liked it too and I suspect we are in the minority. His run started out kind of shakey and the story I read somewhere was that Claremont was a Marvel editor at that time and Scott Lobdell left comics for a job on the West Coast. Lobdell is still credited for the plot several issues into Claremont's run. Claremont assigned himself to the FF because they really didn't have anyone else ready to jump into it at that time. I thought it was good to see him take on another section of the MU besides the X-Men. He also did several of those tie ins that was a mini-event to chronicle Doom's return to the MU after being marooned back on Franklin's pocket dimension version of Earth.

[Iron Maiden]

Of course, Claremont used every opportunity he could to guest individual X-Men members as much as he can. There was even speculation on a website I read that he wanted Shadowcat to be a long-term supporting character.

Yes, he did rely on those as a crutch for a while. I remember something about Kitty joining too but then he created Valeria von Doom so maybe she was a compromise. I liked her quite a bit. It gave us a chance to see Reed and Sue parenting a teenager. These days, Valeria Richards acts more like her than the 3 year old she should be.

[Nomads1]

Of course, Claremont used every opportunity he could to guest individual X-Men members as much as he can. There was even speculation on a website I read that he wanted Shadowcat to be a long-term supporting character.

I remember him using many of the concepts he introduced and used in the X-Men universe, such as the Captain Britain Corps and the Brood, but I don't recall him using many X-Men characters per say. Has been a long time since I read it. I could be forgetting stuff.

Peace

[Iron Maiden]

I remember him using many of the concepts he introduced and used in the X-Men universe, such as the Captain Britain Corps and the Brood, but I don't recall him using many X-Men characters per say. Has been a long time since I read it. I could be forgetting stuff.

Peace

Going from memory, he finished up the Crucible character that Lobdell introduced but for some reason tied him into the Enclave as Dr Chimsky. I got the impression that he was an entirely different character who was targeting Reed at first. He also slaughtered the monks that were left behind at the monastery that gave Victor refuge after his accident.

Later on, there was the story with Ronan on the moon and the intro of Valeria.

[vh4ever]

Waid's work will always rank ( for me, )

1) His First Wally West Flash run. Second run did not live up to expectations.
2) His first Captain America run w/ Ron Garney. See #1 re: second stint.
3) Kingdom Come
4) His FF run. Wieringo was great.
5) His Ruse/Empire work. Altogether too short-lived.

[nosocialize100]

I wonder how Waid has done it. His run on Daredevil is giving him a new lease on life as far as new readers go. Where was he the last 15 years?

[Expletive Deleted]

I wonder how Waid has done it. His run on Daredevil is giving him a new lease on life as far as new readers go. Where was he the last 15 years?

He went to DC and worked on Superman: Birthright, a relaunched Legion of Superheroes, 52, Flash, and The Brave & The Bold. Then he went to Boom! and did Irredeemable and Incorruptible. He was also part of the rotating Amazing Spider-Man team after OMD and he did a Dr. Strange mini-series a year or two back.