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  1. #46
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    You know hes the main character in teen titans right? Over dramatic much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymeric View Post
    You know hes the main character in teen titans right? Over dramatic much?
    The thing is he's not even featured much in TT even as a main character, nor do we even know his backstory. He only appears in a few panels in RHatO, and the issue that was supposed to bring him back into the Night of the Owls event, we only get one panel of him. You can't blame people for getting upset.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymeric View Post
    You know hes the main character in teen titans right? Over dramatic much?
    He's the "main character" in a terribly written book with 7 other characters.

  4. #49
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStytch View Post
    Bruce, at least in the preboot DCU, had a falling out with Tim after he stalked Captain Boomerang and [initially] seemed to be planning to kill him. He didn't but Bruce was angry that Tim had planned a murder [a bit odd given that Boomerang murdered Tim's father]but the final issue of Red Robin ended with them estranged. I just assumed the estrangement had carried over into the DCNu.
    I really doubt this. For one thing, it seems out of character for Bruce (how many times has Damian outright killed people?) plus it requires a tighter continuity between pre and post Flashpoint than I think is there. I don't think Tim's absence has anything to do with story elements; I think it's solely because TPTB have decided to concentrate on other characters. Even his prominence in Teen Titans doesn't preclude him having his own title; he was both places in the past and besides, Superboy is both places now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Teen Titans is a terrible book
    I agree. It reads more like a 90's Marvel book than a DC title. And I absolutely hate the wings.

    I know I'm kinda pissed right now, but its mainly because I feel like DC tried to pull a fast one on me. As soon as I saw the solicit and cover for the most recent TDK I was planning on buying it. Even if it was trash, it was a bat book with Tim in it, and I wanted to support that. So glad I leafed through it first. One panel, ridiculous.
    This was disappointing; I had the same reaction (except I still bought it). The solicitation said, "Red Robin is back in Gotham City just in time to face off against TALON and THE COURT OF OWLS!" Now, before anybody starts screaming about "those bastards at DC," let me say I think this was completely innocent. This solicitation came out right after Jenkins either left or was removed (I never heard which) and Hurwitz was announced as the new writer, effective with #10. Clearly, the solicitation info was put together quickly, before a plot was well thought out. And I'm assuming that Winick or someone else later decided it was better to go in a different direction. I get that. But it's still disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    As for your opinion on Jason Todd, that's simply revisionist history that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't say this as opinion but as a simple fact, even if you're going to use the vote for his death as a measuring stick(which doesn't really work) you just have to look at the votes for his death to see that the claim that no one liked him is incorrect; 5,343 people voted for his death and 5,271 voted to save him which is only a difference of 72 votes. If that isn't enough to illustrate that it wasn't everyone who hated him it should be pointed out that those votes do not represent individual people as there was no limit to the number of times you could call, in fact it's been said by no other than Denny O'Neil that one person in California alone was responsible for more than 300 votes in favor of Jason's death so that should dispel any ideas that his death represented any kind of majority opinion of the character.

    Further, and most importantly, you have the issue that it was a yes or no question and that doesn't mean the votes for his death count as people who hated Jason Todd, nor do the votes in favor of saving him mean they liked him either. It's an example of a false equivalence to believe otherwise, as the question wasn't structured around whether you liked Jason or not. The question was simply should he live or die and there are many reasons why you might choose to kill or save him other than whether you liked him as a character or not, such as you though his death would make for a good story, you were simply against killing a child,you just hated the concept of Robin in general with out any preference on Jason, or you thought it would be cool, edgy or mature. The motivations for the vote were not asked for so it's really impossible to draw any concrete conclusions based on those results.
    Absolutely correct, and very well stated.

    As for whether his stories were poorly written that's more subjective, but personally I think his post crisis adventures are some of my favorite Batman stories period.
    It might be pointed out, however, that Jim Starlin, who wrote a lot of that material (as well as Death in the Family) is on record as having absolutely hated Jason.

    So with that said I can't really see why you'd hold up Tim as being an unbroken concept while dismissing Jason and putting aside Damian, they all fit equally as Robin really and have all been pretty popular. Now, Tim has been the only Robin to be able to headline their own series for any period of time, so perhaps a case could be made that he's the most popular Robin, but I don't think that really makes him better than the others as that longevity was sort of the result of a perfect storm of various factors
    See, when Guicho asked, "Why Tim?" that was the first thing I thought. Tim is the only Robin who ever starred in his own title. Dick never did; Jason never did; and Damian doesn't. Not only that, it was a long running title: 183 issues, not counting Red Robin, all of the mini series, annuals, etc. Personally, I like Damian and would not advocate for Tim to usurp his role. But to not give a character with this long of a history and sales success his own venue is a real mistake, IMO.

    though it none the less has left me baffled why Tim has remained rather ostracized in the nucontinuity. I can only think that the reason he isn't heavily involved in the court of owls story is that Teen Titans is in the midst of its own event so they may have felt that he shouldn't be in two places at once.
    Seriously? When every month Batman is in the middle of a different adventure in each of his titles? I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will.S View Post
    The problem for me is that having a Tim book would overcrowd the already crowded Bat family books.
    That argument only applies if you're under the notion that you have to buy them all. As long as sales are good, there's no such thing as "overcrowded."
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  5. #50
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    See, when Guicho asked, "Why Tim?" that was the first thing I thought. Tim is the only Robin who ever starred in his own title. Dick never did; Jason never did; and Damian doesn't. Not only that, it was a long running title: 183 issues, not counting Red Robin, all of the mini series, annuals, etc. Personally, I like Damian and would not advocate for Tim to usurp his role. But to not give a character with this long of a history and sales success his own venue is a real mistake, IMO.



    Seriously? When every month Batman is in the middle of a different adventure in each of his titles? I don't think so.



    That argument only applies if you're under the notion that you have to buy them all. As long as sales are good, there's no such thing as "overcrowded."
    Indeed I don't buy the overcrowded theory, I don't feel obligated to buy every book so they're welcome to publish as many s they like and I'm not one to obsess over how characters like Batman can appear in multiple titles and have separate adventures all at the same time, but I do think that might indeed be the reasoning for limiting Tim's exposure. Tim has been an incredibly popular character pretty much since his inception so to have him completely uninvolved in the current bat books strikes me as odd, and the only reason I can think of is that DC feels he shouldn't appear in more than one event. That's just conjecture on my part, with no real basis in fact but it's a rationalization that lets me believe Tim will show up more often next fall after both the events in Teen Titans and Batman are comfortably done and dealt with.

  6. #51
    Junior Member DanDunne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    As I said earlier, I've never really understood why Bruce can't age a little. Forty for instance isn't really all that old and it allows for him to comfortably have a career with each of the Robins.

    As for your opinion on Jason Todd, that's simply revisionist history that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't say this as opinion but as a simple fact, even if you're going to use the vote for his death as a measuring stick(which doesn't really work) you just have to look at the votes for his death to see that the claim that no one liked him is incorrect; 5,343 people voted for his death and 5,271 voted to save him which is only a difference of 72 votes. If that isn't enough to illustrate that it wasn't everyone who hated him it should be pointed out that those votes do not represent individual people as there was no limit to the number of times you could call, in fact it's been said by no other than Denny O'Neil that one person in California alone was responsible for more than 300 votes in favor of Jason's death so that should dispel any ideas that his death represented any kind of majority opinion of the character.

    Further, and most importantly, you have the issue that it was a yes or no question and that doesn't mean the votes for his death count as people who hated Jason Todd, nor do the votes in favor of saving him mean they liked him either. It's an example of a false equivalence to believe otherwise, as the question wasn't structured around whether you liked Jason or not. The question was simply should he live or die and there are many reasons why you might choose to kill or save him other than whether you liked him as a character or not, such as you though his death would make for a good story, you were simply against killing a child,you just hated the concept of Robin in general with out any preference on Jason, or you thought it would be cool, edgy or mature. The motivations for the vote were not asked for so it's really impossible to draw any concrete conclusions based on those results.

    As for whether his stories were poorly written that's more subjective, but personally I think his post crisis adventures are some of my favorite Batman stories period. But even his precrisis stories aren't that bad; they're no worse than the stories that featured Dick as Nightwing that were being written at the time and certainly no worse than all the previous stories from the 40's, 50's and 60's that featured Dick as Robin so I don't think the claim that he was poorly written hold any water at all. I'll grant you that his precrisis origin was pretty cliche but other than that I don't think you could even say he was poorly conceived as he moved on from that and became an interesting character in spite of that. And his post crisis origin? Amazing. I just don't see how anyone can read that story and then think he was a bad character. He jacked the tires to the Batmobile, how cool is that for a start?

    So with that said I can't really see why you'd hold up Tim as being an unbroken concept while dismissing Jason and putting aside Damian, they all fit equally as Robin really and have all been pretty popular. Now, Tim has been the only Robin to be able to headline their own series for any period of time, so perhaps a case could be made that he's the most popular Robin, but I don't think that really makes him better than the others as that longevity was sort of the result of a perfect storm of various factors, though it none the less has left me baffled why Tim has remained rather ostracized in the nucontinuity. I can only think that the reason he isn't heavily involved in the court of owls story is that Teen Titans is in the midst of its own event so they may have felt that he shouldn't be in two places at once. It'll be interesting to see if Tim has a larger presence in the Batfamily after these two events are over.
    It's kind of always been a running thing that people didn't really like Jason Todd. Say what you want about that vote, but the fact that it ever even came to that is a sign that all was not well with that character.

  7. #52
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Indeed I don't buy the overcrowded theory, I don't feel obligated to buy every book so they're welcome to publish as many s they like and I'm not one to obsess over how characters like Batman can appear in multiple titles and have separate adventures all at the same time, but I do think that might indeed be the reasoning for limiting Tim's exposure. Tim has been an incredibly popular character pretty much since his inception so to have him completely uninvolved in the current bat books strikes me as odd, and the only reason I can think of is that DC feels he shouldn't appear in more than one event. That's just conjecture on my part, with no real basis in fact but it's a rationalization that lets me believe Tim will show up more often next fall after both the events in Teen Titans and Batman are comfortably done and dealt with.
    I'm hoping for Wave 3 (or 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by DanDunne View Post
    It's kind of always been a running thing that people didn't really like Jason Todd. Say what you want about that vote, but the fact that it ever even came to that is a sign that all was not well with that character.
    Well, that's your conclusion, and you're welcome to your opinion, of course. But as someone who was around at the time (and managing a comic shop at the time), I think you're wrong. Many of the people who bought the book and voted for his death at my shop weren't regular readers and didn't even realize it wasn't the original Robin.
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  8. #53
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanDunne View Post
    It's kind of always been a running thing that people didn't really like Jason Todd. Say what you want about that vote, but the fact that it ever even came to that is a sign that all was not well with that character.
    It's a common misconception, the fact that it's been taken as fact for some time doesn't make it true. The vote had little to do with things "not being well" with the character and everything to do with editorial wanting a new gimmick to drive sales.

  9. #54
    Junior Member DanDunne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    Well, that's your conclusion, and you're welcome to your opinion, of course. But as someone who was around at the time (and managing a comic shop at the time), I think you're wrong. Many of the people who bought the book and voted for his death at my shop weren't regular readers and didn't even realize it wasn't the original Robin.
    I'm really not so much basing it on the vote. The concept was problematic back then, as I'm sure you know. That was the time of 'Comics aren't just for Kids', Alan Moore and Frank Miller. Batman was immensely popular and getting increasingly darker and there was a feeling that a little kid running around in shorts and little boots wasn't really suited to the character anymore. And Todd just didn't have much of an identity, the concept needed a rethink and Jason's post-crisis origin didn't do that sufficiently.

    I think a lot of people genuinely thought Robin was dead for good, literally and figuratively, after Jason died. The new Batman, like in the 1989 movie, was a lone agent, too dark and obsessed to have a Robin. Tim Drake changed all that, made the concept believable and modern - thematically and visually. And people totally responded. A lot of them were dead set against introducing a new Robin, but the writers and artists (helped by a Neal Adams costume redesign) knocked it out of the park.

    So yes, I think he can definitively be called a better Robin than Jason Todd.

    Now you can probably say Damien has a story that can compete with that. Introducing Batman's son and having him be Robin is the single biggest change to the Batman mythos since he was introduced. And judging by this thread, people are pro him staying Robin for good. That's huge and quite a feather in Morrison's cap. I haven't read enough of Damien's stories to weigh in completely, but I'm interested that this is happening. I've always kind of figured that Tim would go back to being Robin, Nightwing would go back to being the more peripheral bat-character, but it looks like I was wrong.

    Ah well, at least Tim is the Robin in the Arkham gameverse.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanDunne View Post
    Ah well, at least Tim is the Robin in the Arkham gameverse.
    And the new season of Young Justice.

    But I don't agree that Tim should go back to being Robin. Just like how some people are upset at Oracle being regressed back to Batgirl and effectively benching more superior Cass/Steph Batgirls. Getting rid of Damian in favour of Tim will bring the same reaction (though I wouldn't call Damian more superior than Tim), considering that Damian has already established quite a fanbase.

  11. #56
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanDunne View Post
    I'm really not so much basing it on the vote. The concept was problematic back then, as I'm sure you know. That was the time of 'Comics aren't just for Kids', Alan Moore and Frank Miller. Batman was immensely popular and getting increasingly darker and there was a feeling that a little kid running around in shorts and little boots wasn't really suited to the character anymore. And Todd just didn't have much of an identity, the concept needed a rethink and Jason's post-crisis origin didn't do that sufficiently.

    I think a lot of people genuinely thought Robin was dead for good, literally and figuratively, after Jason died. The new Batman, like in the 1989 movie, was a lone agent, too dark and obsessed to have a Robin. Tim Drake changed all that, made the concept believable and modern - thematically and visually. And people totally responded. A lot of them were dead set against introducing a new Robin, but the writers and artists (helped by a Neal Adams costume redesign) knocked it out of the park.

    So yes, I think he can definitively be called a better Robin than Jason Todd.
    Everything you say is true. And personally, I wish Todd hadn't been brought back. It cheapens his death and IMO, he isn't a very interesting character as the Red Hood.

    What I was arguing about is the perception that Jason was killed off because he wasn't very popular at the time. I think that's a superficial reading of events at best. You yourself, in your opening paragraph above point out some of the other issues (and Guardian pointed out many others).

    Personally, I agree that Tim was a better Robin. But it's really not a fair comparison. Tim had over 200 issues of his own book in which he could be developed as a character, over the course of many years. Jason was only Robin for a relatively short time, and only appeared with Batman (and not even then all of the time). He didn't even have a regular spot in the Teen Titans like Dick Grayson.
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  12. #57
    Junior Member DanDunne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    Everything you say is true. And personally, I wish Todd hadn't been brought back. It cheapens his death and IMO, he isn't a very interesting character as the Red Hood.

    What I was arguing about is the perception that Jason was killed off because he wasn't very popular at the time. I think that's a superficial reading of events at best. You yourself, in your opening paragraph above point out some of the other issues (and Guardian pointed out many others).

    Personally, I agree that Tim was a better Robin. But it's really not a fair comparison. Tim had over 200 issues of his own book in which he could be developed as a character, over the course of many years. Jason was only Robin for a relatively short time, and only appeared with Batman (and not even then all of the time). He didn't even have a regular spot in the Teen Titans like Dick Grayson.
    Yeah, there definitely were a host of reasons why he eventually got killed off, I agree. It was as much to do with what was happening in comics back then as anything. Personally, I never liked the idea of the vote. I only started reading comics a short while after, but I doubt I would have voted to kill him. It always seemed kind of crazy to me that they went that route to decide his fate.

    As you can tell I came along at the perfect time for Tim Drake. So no doubt I am biased.

  13. #58
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanDunne View Post
    I'm really not so much basing it on the vote. The concept was problematic back then, as I'm sure you know. That was the time of 'Comics aren't just for Kids', Alan Moore and Frank Miller. Batman was immensely popular and getting increasingly darker and there was a feeling that a little kid running around in shorts and little boots wasn't really suited to the character anymore. And Todd just didn't have much of an identity, the concept needed a rethink and Jason's post-crisis origin didn't do that sufficiently.

    I think a lot of people genuinely thought Robin was dead for good, literally and figuratively, after Jason died. The new Batman, like in the 1989 movie, was a lone agent, too dark and obsessed to have a Robin. Tim Drake changed all that, made the concept believable and modern - thematically and visually. And people totally responded. A lot of them were dead set against introducing a new Robin, but the writers and artists (helped by a Neal Adams costume redesign) knocked it out of the park.

    So yes, I think he can definitively be called a better Robin than Jason Todd.

    Now you can probably say Damien has a story that can compete with that. Introducing Batman's son and having him be Robin is the single biggest change to the Batman mythos since he was introduced. And judging by this thread, people are pro him staying Robin for good. That's huge and quite a feather in Morrison's cap. I haven't read enough of Damien's stories to weigh in completely, but I'm interested that this is happening. I've always kind of figured that Tim would go back to being Robin, Nightwing would go back to being the more peripheral bat-character, but it looks like I was wrong.

    Ah well, at least Tim is the Robin in the Arkham gameverse.
    The bold section is another commonly held misconception, a quick look at Batman's sales figures in the 80's would dispel any notion that you had in your mind that Batman was immensely popular with readers at the time, the sales on Batman and Detective were actually at some of their all time lowest at that point in the 80's, inconceivably running neck and neck with titles like Blue Devil and Red Tornado and being outsold by nearly 2 to 1 by such titles as Hawkman, Fury of Firestorm and Sargent Rock. After two consecutive decades of Batman consistently being one of DC's top bread winners, that's a hard concept to grasp but its the truth.

    As for the book becoming too dark for a Robin, that just doesn't seem to fit with the books I've read. If you look at collections such as Batman in the 80's you can really get a good view of what was going on at the time, and although there was a push for more "mature" stories like Moore's Watchmen and Miller's Dark Knight Returns that wasn't really reflected all that much in the monthlies being put out at the time. Reading them there's very little tonally to differentiate them from the stories that O'Neil and Adams were doing a decade earlier.

    It wasn't until after Death in the Family proved so successful that Batman really became what I'd call dark, and that movement is something I associate much more with the 90's then the 80's and strangely enough that's when Tim Drake was published which is what makes your perception of the matter seem really odd to me. The 90's were unequivocally the darkest and grimmest period in Batman's publishing history, much darker than the 80's and yet you point out that the growing darkness was why Todd "didn't work"? That doesn't make much sense to me, especially since personality wise Jason Todd was much darker than Tim so I don't see why he'd fail while Tim succeed due to darker themes in Batman.

  14. #59
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    The bold section is another commonly held misconception, a quick look at Batman's sales figures in the 80's would dispel any notion that you had in your mind that Batman was immensely popular, the sales on Batman and Detective were actually at some of their all time lowest at that point in time, inconceivably running neck and neck with titles like Blue Devil and Red Tornado and being outsold by nearly 2 to 1 by such titles as Hawkman, Fury of Firestorm and Sargent Rock.
    Good point. I remember selling out of the DITF issues, even though I had ordered heavier than usual. I think I was typically getting 15-20 copies of Batman per month, compared to 100 copies of X-Men. As I recall, it was with the release of the Batman movie, later that same year, that Batman's sales began picking up significantly.

    As for the book becoming too dark for a Robin, that just doesn't seem to fit with the books I've read. If you look at collections such as Batman in the 80's you can really get a good view of what was going on at the time, and although there was a push for more "mature" stories like Moore's Watchmen and Miller's Dark Knight Returns that wasn't really reflected all that much in the monthlies being put out at the time. Reading them there's very little tonally to differentiate them from the stories that O'Neil and Adams were doing a decade earlier.
    Well, I think I'll agree with you both a bit on this one. Miller's Dark Knight and Year One definitely did bring in some new readers who were less than thrilled with the concept of a Robin. But DC didn't seem to know how to follow that up very well in the monthlies at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aprillis View Post
    The thing is he's not even featured much in TT even as a main character, nor do we even know his backstory. He only appears in a few panels in RHatO, and the issue that was supposed to bring him back into the Night of the Owls event, we only get one panel of him. You can't blame people for getting upset.
    He assembled the team! How is he not the main character? Everyone follows his lead! Heck half of The Culling was him and the bad guy monologing at eachother like old school comics!

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