Tim Drake Hasn't Been in the Bat Books Much in the New 52

[Will.S]

I'm not sure why this little divide has happened and if their relationship from before the relaunch transitioned over to the new 52 universe then I guess that works for me but I'd definitely like to see a follow up conversation between Tim and Bruce given how separated he's been with the Batman family.

That being said, I think the current situation with Tim is pretty ideal because it lets him be his own character as a Teen Titan instead of being a forgotten toy. While I'm no fan of Lobdell's Teen Titans work I do like the fact that Teen Titans is the title where you can mainly find him and it's probably a better title to give Tim and Bruce that sort of interaction/conversation.

[DanDunne]

You mean the "mythos" that had already changed from it's roots. The absolute loner who but for a fluke, that one moment of kismet for one time connects to that unique kid he sees as a reflection of himself, changed to the story of a guy who endlessly adopts a string of orphans and turns them into Robin clones.
If you are going to decry change, you would never have gotten Tim.

I know you're pointing out part of the concept that seems cheesy, but at least he didn't go out looking for either Jason Todd or Tim Drake. They stumbled upon him. Tim found out that he was Batman and confronted him with it. So he was always involved from that point on because he knew the secret. And Batman was totally against the character becoming Robin at first.

Tim wasn't just another arbitrary Robin clone. You have to remember, before he came along Robin was running around in little tight pants and pixie boots. I would never have been able to take that seriously. Tim was a computer geek, he went to school, he had a girlfriend, a dad, at least before the crappy Identity Crisis came along. He brought the character firmly into the modern era and made it believable.

[Will.S]

I know you're pointing out part of the concept that seems cheesy, but at least he didn't go out looking for either Jason Todd or Tim Drake. They stumbled upon him. Tim found out that he was Batman and confronted him with it. So he was always involved from that point on because he knew the secret. And Batman was totally against the character becoming Robin at first.

Tim wasn't just another arbitrary Robin clone. You have to remember, before he came along Robin was running around in little tight pants and pixie boots. I would never have been able to take that seriously. Tim was a computer geek, he went to school, he had a girlfriend, a dad, at least before the crappy Identity Crisis came along. He brought the character firmly into the modern era and made it believable.

The only problem for me with the Robin thing was that while I like Tim, outside of him just being younger I didn't see a great deal of difference between him and say a younger Dick Grayson. I mean he had his share of problems and back story but I can't definitively say whether I think Tim is a better strategist than Dick or anything. At best I can say that Tim is maybe smarter than Dick in an overall sense while Dick is more physically adept but that's all I can really discern.

Damian as Robin put a monkey wrench into that whole role given how many we've had so far but I think he at least provides a better contrast between him and Dick compared to Tim and Dick.

[[Trigger]]

The only problem for me with the Robin thing was that while I like Tim, outside of him just being younger I didn't see a great deal of difference between him and say a younger Dick Grayson. I mean he had his share of problems and back story but I can't definitively say whether I think Tim is a better strategist than Dick or anything. At best I can say that Tim is maybe smarter than Dick in an overall sense while Dick is more physically adept but that's all I can really discern.

Damian as Robin put a monkey wrench into that whole role given how many we've had so far but I think he at least provides a better contrast between him and Dick compared to Tim and Dick.

I agree with the Dick/Tim comparison, which is why he never wanted Tim to be his Robin. Dick more or less saw Tim as an equal. I would hate to see Tim go back to being Robin again. That would be like making Wally Kid Flash after having grown up already and becoming his own person. As for the mythos, Damien is the only person I buy as an actual real robin. He's been trained from his birth as an assassin and as said before Batman keeps him close to keep an eye on him. I would like to see Tim connecting with the Bat family with more importance. I mean he was on the cover of The Dark Knight and was only in one panel at the back of the book.

The only way I see the timeline fitting is if Dick was Robin for 2 years, Todd for 6 months, Tim for 2 years and Damien for 6 months. That fits into 5 years. Which means Dick was Nightwing for about 2 1/2 years before he took up the Batman mantle and was only with Damien for 6 months until Batman came back. That can be stretched more if Batman was having robins before the 5 year time line they've given since I saw somewhere that Batman was operating for a while before JL

[Mr. Holmes]

The only problem for me with the Robin thing was that while I like Tim, outside of him just being younger I didn't see a great deal of difference between him and say a younger Dick Grayson. I mean he had his share of problems and back story but I can't definitively say whether I think Tim is a better strategist than Dick or anything. At best I can say that Tim is maybe smarter than Dick in an overall sense while Dick is more physically adept but that's all I can really discern.

The main distinction between the two is that Tim was originally supposed to be the most normal of the Robins. His series drew inspiration from Amazing Spider-Man.

[Will.S]

The main distinction between the two is that Tim was originally supposed to be the most normal of the Robins. His series drew inspiration from Amazing Spider-Man.

I don't think that alone makes for a great case though, Dick was relatively a normal Robin as well.

[sidekick77]

I don't think that alone makes for a great case though, Dick was relatively a normal Robin as well.

Dick was a relatively normal Robin despite his family tragedy and being thrust into an absurd superhero role at age 10. However, I agree with Mr.Holmes that Tim's own world of having a family and going to school [obligations that took him outside the Batfamily and gave him great plot potential for a solo] was designed to be his distinction among the Robins. An 'everyman' approach.

I'm not sure if this derived from an interview or what, but rumor had it at that Chuck Dixon and Dan Didio clashed on the topic of removing/killing Tim's father, something that Didio wanted, but Dixon stated he would never do while he was on the books. To make him another orphan among orphans would be needless and perhaps destructive to his character. And I think his instincts were correct, seeing that his personality and uniqueness suffered heavily for the next several years.

[Whip Whirlwind]

I'm not sure why this little divide has happened and if their relationship from before the relaunch transitioned over to the new 52 universe then I guess that works for me but I'd definitely like to see a follow up conversation between Tim and Bruce given how separated he's been with the Batman family.

That being said, I think the current situation with Tim is pretty ideal because it lets him be his own character as a Teen Titan instead of being a forgotten toy. While I'm no fan of Lobdell's Teen Titans work I do like the fact that Teen Titans is the title where you can mainly find him and it's probably a better title to give Tim and Bruce that sort of interaction/conversation.

I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone who actually likes Tim as a character could think this. Teen Titans is a terrible book and in general has never been a good fit for Tim. It really annoys me that because of the legacy that Dick created Tim has to be chained to a franchise that just doesn't play to his strengths as a character at all. It's like a pair of cement shoes. Dick on the other hand totally fit the idea of the Titans, and I still wish that he wasn't chained to the bat franchise as much as he is. Not that I don't love the current book, or how he's been used in the batverse, but It bugs me that so much of his non bat history/connections were either jettisoned or just ignored.

Tim is a bat character with super/wonder/flash friends. He's a detective, a guy who's most defining traits as a robin were his reliance on caution, recon, and patience. Him flying around cutting people with his wings is the opposite of that.

Tim's been a terrible character since OYL, and the only small ray of hope was Yost's work on Red Robin. I know I'm kinda pissed right now, but its mainly because I feel like DC tried to pull a fast one on me. As soon as I saw the solicit and cover for the most recent TDK I was planning on buying it. Even if it was trash, it was a bat book with Tim in it, and I wanted to support that. So glad I leafed through it first. One panel, ridiculous. I'd honestly be totally okay if he died or went into limbo with Cass and Steph.

[Fate's Faith]

I like Tim in Titans but I would bet we see more crossover with the Bat titles once he gets his solo back. Now DC, when's that gonna happen?!

[Knight of DC]

I know I'm kinda pissed right now, but its mainly because I feel like DC tried to pull a fast one on me. As soon as I saw the solicit and cover for the most recent TDK I was planning on buying it. Even if it was trash, it was a bat book with Tim in it, and I wanted to support that.

Same, but I actually got conned into buying the, what I call on my blog, "three dollar hooker". It's affection was an illusion and it stole my money.

But yeah, I've always preferred Tim as a solo character. Sometimes he works in teams, but the current Teen Titans is not one.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Amen to that.

When the reboot was announced, I was really thinking that Tim would be one of the characters who could really use it. I mean it was all about trimming what doesn't work and focusing on what made the characters great to begin with right? I mean to oversimplify into pitch terms Tim is basically peter parker meets batman. That's what made him work, and it baffles me that DC wouldn't try to make use of that.

Guess they felt Static had that niche covered?

[thwhtGuardian]

Tim as the "perfect" Robin might be biased, but as I pointed out there's a pretty good reason why only Dick should be allowed to grow, because otherwise it stretches the credulity of how old Bruce Wayne can realistically be. They simply can't keep having all these characters in continuity without stopping the aging train at some point.

And what you can say about Tim as Robin is that it was never a broken concept. He works as a modern Robin, a character you were always going to need once the decision was made to age Dick Grayson. Jason Todd did not work. No one liked him, he was poorly written and conceived.

Now I like Damien and I have no problem with him existing, I'm just wondering about what it does to the Batman mythos if they were to permanently make the story of Batman and Robin, Batman and Son. Personally I think that takes the concept too far away from its roots. My feeling about the Bruce/Damien relationship is that, for the good of the character and what he's been since his inception, it can never truly normalize. He can't always be there by Batman's side as a replacement for Robin. And what's fun about making him another Robin clone anyway? He needs to be a neutral character at best, not an absolutely good one like Robin.

As I said earlier, I've never really understood why Bruce can't age a little. Forty for instance isn't really all that old and it allows for him to comfortably have a career with each of the Robins.

As for your opinion on Jason Todd, that's simply revisionist history that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't say this as opinion but as a simple fact, even if you're going to use the vote for his death as a measuring stick(which doesn't really work) you just have to look at the votes for his death to see that the claim that no one liked him is incorrect; 5,343 people voted for his death and 5,271 voted to save him which is only a difference of 72 votes. If that isn't enough to illustrate that it wasn't everyone who hated him it should be pointed out that those votes do not represent individual people as there was no limit to the number of times you could call, in fact it's been said by no other than Denny O'Neil that one person in California alone was responsible for more than 300 votes in favor of Jason's death so that should dispel any ideas that his death represented any kind of majority opinion of the character.

Further, and most importantly, you have the issue that it was a yes or no question and that doesn't mean the votes for his death count as people who hated Jason Todd, nor do the votes in favor of saving him mean they liked him either. It's an example of a false equivalence to believe otherwise, as the question wasn't structured around whether you liked Jason or not. The question was simply should he live or die and there are many reasons why you might choose to kill or save him other than whether you liked him as a character or not, such as you though his death would make for a good story, you were simply against killing a child,you just hated the concept of Robin in general with out any preference on Jason, or you thought it would be cool, edgy or mature. The motivations for the vote were not asked for so it's really impossible to draw any concrete conclusions based on those results.

As for whether his stories were poorly written that's more subjective, but personally I think his post crisis adventures are some of my favorite Batman stories period. But even his precrisis stories aren't that bad; they're no worse than the stories that featured Dick as Nightwing that were being written at the time and certainly no worse than all the previous stories from the 40's, 50's and 60's that featured Dick as Robin so I don't think the claim that he was poorly written hold any water at all. I'll grant you that his precrisis origin was pretty cliche but other than that I don't think you could even say he was poorly conceived as he moved on from that and became an interesting character in spite of that. And his post crisis origin? Amazing. I just don't see how anyone can read that story and then think he was a bad character. He jacked the tires to the Batmobile, how cool is that for a start?

So with that said I can't really see why you'd hold up Tim as being an unbroken concept while dismissing Jason and putting aside Damian, they all fit equally as Robin really and have all been pretty popular. Now, Tim has been the only Robin to be able to headline their own series for any period of time, so perhaps a case could be made that he's the most popular Robin, but I don't think that really makes him better than the others as that longevity was sort of the result of a perfect storm of various factors, though it none the less has left me baffled why Tim has remained rather ostracized in the nucontinuity. I can only think that the reason he isn't heavily involved in the court of owls story is that Teen Titans is in the midst of its own event so they may have felt that he shouldn't be in two places at once. It'll be interesting to see if Tim has a larger presence in the Batfamily after these two events are over.

[Will.S]

I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone who actually likes Tim as a character could think this. Teen Titans is a terrible book and in general has never been a good fit for Tim. It really annoys me that because of the legacy that Dick created Tim has to be chained to a franchise that just doesn't play to his strengths as a character at all. It's like a pair of cement shoes. Dick on the other hand totally fit the idea of the Titans, and I still wish that he wasn't chained to the bat franchise as much as he is. Not that I don't love the current book, or how he's been used in the batverse, but It bugs me that so much of his non bat history/connections were either jettisoned or just ignored.

Tim is a bat character with super/wonder/flash friends. He's a detective, a guy who's most defining traits as a robin were his reliance on caution, recon, and patience. Him flying around cutting people with his wings is the opposite of that.

Tim's been a terrible character since OYL, and the only small ray of hope was Yost's work on Red Robin. I know I'm kinda pissed right now, but its mainly because I feel like DC tried to pull a fast one on me. As soon as I saw the solicit and cover for the most recent TDK I was planning on buying it. Even if it was trash, it was a bat book with Tim in it, and I wanted to support that. So glad I leafed through it first. One panel, ridiculous. I'd honestly be totally okay if he died or went into limbo with Cass and Steph.

The problem for me is that having a Tim book would overcrowd the already crowded Bat family books.

Usually I don't mind it if Tim has his own book either as Robin or Red Robin and as I've stated previously, I don't have a lot of love for Lobdell's Teen Titans but I do think that as a start it's a good place to keep him. Eventually I wouldn't mind a solo book or mini series to explore Tim more in depth so as to continue to make him a more unique character from a younger Dick but so far I think the Teen Titans setting mostly works and is among the reasons why I've enjoyed his appearances in Young Justice.

[Aprillis]

Okay, I reread TT and realized that there was a dialogue between Tim and Cassie where she goes: "You were homeschooled, weren't you?". First issue too. Can't believe I missed that part.

[Whip Whirlwind]

The problem for me is that having a Tim book would overcrowd the already crowded Bat family books.

Oh most definitely, TDK does not need to exist, and in my wildest dreams Detective Comics would be a rotating cast book similar to DCU presents, but instead focusing on characters like Question (I know, I know), Slam Bradley, Tim, Elongated Man, Detective Chimp, Harvey Bullock, Marcus Driver, Jason Bard, etc.

But I've always maintained that it's not overcrowing so long as each book has a defined purpose that sets it apart from the others, and imo 'TEC and TDK are just lesser versions of Batman proper.

Usually I don't mind it if Tim has his own book either as Robin or Red Robin and as I've stated previously, I don't have a lot of love for Lobdell's Teen Titans but I do think that as a start it's a good place to keep him. Eventually I wouldn't mind a solo book or mini series to explore Tim more in depth so as to continue to make him a more unique character from a younger Dick but so far I think the Teen Titans setting mostly works and is among the reasons why I've enjoyed his appearances in Young Justice.

Fair enough, again, I admit I was a bit crotchety when I posted. And honestly I wouldn't hate Teen Titans so much if it wasn't for the INCREDIBLY poorly implemented exposition to catch up new readers. Seriously, no comic should have characters describing events in the previous issue to another character who was right there for said events.

And while I get the flying for the costume, I wish it looked less like sheet metal and more like a cape. Like if it had light weight "bones" in the cape with bladed "feathers" at the end, that could go loose or taut depending on whether he's flying or sneaking. As it is now any attempt any attempts at stealth look ridiculous since well...he's dragging around sheet metal.

But I guess best case scenario for me is that Tim gets a solo book down the road and no longer leads TT (leaving that to Supes and Wondy), but still retains an oracle like involvement with the team and still shows up from time to time when things get really dicey.