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  1. #61
    Idaho Spuds Slam_Bradley's Avatar
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    I, on the other hand, have tried to read Moonshadow at least three times and found it utterly unreadable each time.

  2. #62
    Frugal fanboy Cei-U!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley View Post
    I, on the other hand, have tried to read Moonshadow at least three times and found it utterly unreadable each time.
    I didn't find it *utterly* unreadable since I actually read the Epic series all the way through but it was an effort. The book simply wallows in its own artiness. Personally I prefer DeMatteis' work on Captain America, The Defenders (before he screwed it up by adding the ever-uninteresting Angel and Iceman) and Marvel Team-Up runs of the early '80s, titles he wrote simultaneously and interwove plotlines and characters throughout (I'm especially fond of the Frog-Man stories). Straight-ahead super-hero yarns written with intelligence, heart and a touch of humor.*

    Cei-U!
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    *As opposed to his tin-eared, flatfooted "humor" on Giffen's Justice League.
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  3. #63
    *choke* Dan B. in the Underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cei-U! View Post
    Personally I prefer DeMatteis' work on [i]Captain America,
    Very much agreed.

    *As opposed to his tin-eared, flatfooted "humor" on Giffen's Justice League.
    Very much disagreed.

    When it comes to the merits of the Giffen-DeMatteis JL, to paraphrase a statement by a great man, it's hardly a secret that something is badly wrong with Kurt.
    I tend to split superhero comics fans into "People who like Krypto" and "People who don't like Krypto."
    Basically, if you miss the wonder of a dog flying around in a little Superman cape, you're in the wrong hobby.

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  4. #64
    Loose mongoose Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    While it was completed, the ending of Terminator: The Burning Earth was pretty lame. Basically, John Connor and the Resistance attempt to destroy Skynet since Skynet is going to nuke the world for a second time. John takes the majority of his force to directly penetrate Skynet, while another team seeks to find Skynet's generator and shut it down. The whole thing read like a videogame. When John and his soldiers finally reach the CPU, they don't actually have a plan to destroy it except to "start shooting some mainframes." Meanwhile, the other team successfully destroys the generator by causing boulders to fall on top of it (oddly enough, it was too armored to be shot up with plasma but rocks did the trick). Skynet is shut down just as John in about to get his head blown off by an endoskeleton. The bombers carrying the nukes fall out of the sky, the Sun magically comes out, and everyone lives happily ever after. Except in the final panel where you see a terminator's eyes glowing again, but we never hear of any follow up ever again.

    The artwork is amazing (I believe it's Alex Ross' first series work) as it really captures the feel of living on a polluted, bombed out hellhole run by robots, but the story and dialogue is just so wrote, and the conclusion is rushed and cliched.
    Empty winds scrape on the soul never stop to realize/Animal whisperings intoxicate the night
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    Blood, milk and sky....

  5. #65
    Senior Member MDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cei-U! View Post
    I didn't find it *utterly* unreadable since I actually read the Epic series all the way through but it was an effort. The book simply wallows in its own artiness.
    I think that was the series that turned me off of DeMatteis pretty much completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cei-U
    As opposed to his tin-eared, flatfooted "humor" on Giffen's Justice League.
    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    When it comes to the merits of the Giffen-DeMatteis JL, to paraphrase a statement by a great man, it's hardly a secret that something is badly wrong with Kurt.
    No, I gotta to with Kurt on this one. I loved the Giffin JLA, but felt it would've been much better with someone else providing the dialog.
    "It's just lines on paper, folks!"

  6. #66
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    I always felt J.M. DeMatties run on Captain America was second only to the recently finished Ed Brubaker run.

    My pick for storyline that fizzled out is the Acts of Vengeance storyarc that ran through Marvel in late 1989/early 1990. It had a great premise and a very interesting subplot of Magneto putting the Red Skull through the ringer over his involvement in the goings on in Europe during the 1930s and 40s (I wrote it like that as not to offend) but sadly it went nowhere.

    Back on John Marc for a moment. In his Captain America run, he had originally planned to have Steve Rogers die with the Red Skull (the Skull aged Rogers to be the age he would have been without the Super Soldier Serum) in issue 300. That was vetoed and re-written by Mike Carlin (if memory serves) at the behest of Mr. Shooter. I understand the logic behind that but along with the "Not Richard Nixon" ending to Secret Empire by Steve Englehart, it was a disappointing lack of fortitude by Marvel.

    Also, I hated Infinite Crisis and most of what came after with D.C.

    That felt good to finally admit.

  7. #67
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    In the early 90s, when DC introduced Ryan Kendall as the second Black Condor, there was a subplot running through his book concerning the mystery of the original Black Condor, who would periodically appear to Kendall's forest ranger friend as a seemingly ghostly presence nobody else could see and who seemed to have plans for Kendall. Later, he also appeared in The Ray, and on a time travel trip to the past, Ray Terrill encountered 'Senator Thomas Wright' (the original Condor's alter ego) who seemed to have knowledge of the future, as though he was existing simultaneously in both time periods. The most we ever learned was that the ghostly Black Condor was "living with some friends at the top of the world" and apparently directing events. Then, Black Condor and The Ray were both cancelled and, aside from an unexplained non speaking cameo at a wedding (possibly Black Canary and Green Arrows?) in which he seemed to be eating potato salad unnoticed by everyone, I don't think we ever saw the original Black Condor again. We still have no idea what he was up to or why.

  8. #68

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    After finishing my reading of the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman series, I am still wondering a) what the deal was with Etta Candy's mysterious and sinister French fiance and b) what happened between Diana and Keith Griggs when they went up to her apartment to "discuss" their relationship. Two long running subplots that were just completely abandoned and never mentioned again.
    At last, Boy Comics finally gets its own website!

  9. #69
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    A few other storylines I would love to have seen finished by the original creators:

    Steve Englehart's "Magical History of the US" in Doctor Strange: I was actually a bit ambivalent about this story, but I wanted so much for Englehart to carry on writing Doctor Strange I definitely would have stayed around no matter what happened. He was taking the character into some very interesting mental spaces and it's really too bad it had to end so abruptly.

    Steve Gerber's and Mary Skrenes's Omega the Unknown: it's so wrong that Marvel hired a well known novelist to write his own take on this series without ever giving Gerber and Skrenes the opportunity to finish their original story.

    Steve Gerber's Void Indigo: I thought this was quite intriguing, and even though Gerber used some of the ideas in his later Hard Times series, I still would have loved to see VI itself continue to the end.

    Jack Kirby's Eternals and New Gods: like Omega and Void Indigo, these both qualify because they weren't just series made up of successive storylines but each also comprised a big, over-arching story in itself that was obviously meant to have a beginning, middle, and end. We never got much farther than the beginning before cancellation.

  10. #70

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    I have a taste for DC Implosion era books, so... yeah.
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  11. #71
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    In the early 90s, when DC introduced Ryan Kendall as the second Black Condor, there was a subplot running through his book concerning the mystery of the original Black Condor, who would periodically appear to Kendall's forest ranger friend as a seemingly ghostly presence nobody else could see and who seemed to have plans for Kendall. Later, he also appeared in The Ray, and on a time travel trip to the past, Ray Terrill encountered 'Senator Thomas Wright' (the original Condor's alter ego) who seemed to have knowledge of the future, as though he was existing simultaneously in both time periods. The most we ever learned was that the ghostly Black Condor was "living with some friends at the top of the world" and apparently directing events. Then, Black Condor and The Ray were both cancelled and, aside from an unexplained non speaking cameo at a wedding (possibly Black Canary and Green Arrows?) in which he seemed to be eating potato salad unnoticed by everyone, I don't think we ever saw the original Black Condor again. We still have no idea what he was up to or why.
    Wasn't there another Black Condor with red hair, making Ryan the 3rd and the latest version the 4th?
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  12. #72
    Cute.5 Aaron King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    Steve Gerber's and Mary Skrenes's Omega the Unknown: it's so wrong that Marvel hired a well known novelist to write his own take on this series without ever giving Gerber and Skrenes the opportunity to finish their original story.

    Jack Kirby's Eternals and New Gods: like Omega and Void Indigo, these both qualify because they weren't just series made up of successive storylines but each also comprised a big, over-arching story in itself that was obviously meant to have a beginning, middle, and end. We never got much farther than the beginning before cancellation.
    I love Gerber's Omega. I also love Lethem's Omega. I don't think the fact that Lethem's was made has anything to do with letting or not letting Gerber finish it. It's a money thing, and they're all about the money, etc., etc. Thematically, Lethem's work owes so much to the original. Joy for Gerber's style of storytelling shines through the entire work.

    As for Fourth World, I forget where I read it, but someone said that the long-delayed endings of sagas like Kirby's will never deliver, and I tend to agree. I don't think Kirby could have ever fashioned the perfect ending. Simonson, years later on Orion, created an amazing circular "ending" that finished out some emotional threads but still left the prophetic aspects and future possibilities open. And ending that doesn't close things-- "Walt Simonson knows how to pop a cap in a plot's ass," someone somewhere once wrote.
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  13. #73
    Welcome to Bleeker Street MRP's Avatar
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    Didn't Kirby craft an ending of sorts for his Fourth World saga with the new story he produced for the final issue of the six issue Baxter reprint series of New Gods and the Hunger Dogs graphic novel he did in the 80's? I read both of those some years ago but I cannot recall the story elements, but I remember them being Kirby's chance to wrap up his saga the way he wanted to. Not sure either was ever considered "in continuity" but that doesn't really change the fact he got to sort of finish the saga.

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron King View Post
    I love Gerber's Omega. I also love Lethem's Omega. I don't think the fact that Lethem's was made has anything to do with letting or not letting Gerber finish it. It's a money thing, and they're all about the money, etc., etc. Thematically, Lethem's work owes so much to the original. Joy for Gerber's style of storytelling shines through the entire work.

    As for Fourth World, I forget where I read it, but someone said that the long-delayed endings of sagas like Kirby's will never deliver, and I tend to agree. I don't think Kirby could have ever fashioned the perfect ending. Simonson, years later on Orion, created an amazing circular "ending" that finished out some emotional threads but still left the prophetic aspects and future possibilities open. And ending that doesn't close things-- "Walt Simonson knows how to pop a cap in a plot's ass," someone somewhere once wrote.
    I'd be more impressed with Lethem's joy for Gerber's style of storytelling if he'd asked Marvel to offer Gerber and Skrenes the chance to finish their Omega story. As it is, I think his willingness to accept the assignment showed the same sort of contempt for Gerber's feelings about his own story as the Before Watchmen writers and artists show to Alan Moore. That's his and their prerogative, but it doesn't make me feel like reading any of those comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRP View Post
    Didn't Kirby craft an ending of sorts for his Fourth World saga with the new story he produced for the final issue of the six issue Baxter reprint series of New Gods and the Hunger Dogs graphic novel he did in the 80's? I read both of those some years ago but I cannot recall the story elements, but I remember them being Kirby's chance to wrap up his saga the way he wanted to. Not sure either was ever considered "in continuity" but that doesn't really change the fact he got to sort of finish the saga.

    -M
    Continuity doesn't mean anything, and yes, Hunger Dogs was Kirby's very limited chance to write a quick finish to the New Gods story - which is certainly more than Gerber and Skrenes were given with Omega or Kirby himself with The Eternals. It's a very interesting piece of work, but not a substitute for the gradual unfolding of this vast tapestry we were deprived of by the early cancellation. Still, you're right, it is a good thing that DC gave him that chance, belated and limited as it was.

  15. #75
    Welcome to Bleeker Street MRP's Avatar
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    Oh I agree about continuity not being all that important, but I often find I am in the minority in that opinion. And I would give an eye tooth for Kirby to have finished Eternals his way. However, comics from that era were more often conceived as "never-ending stories" if they met with success rather than stories with an end point in site. Limited series or series with a pre-determined end (like say Sandman or Y: The Last Man were conceived and pitched in the modern era) were not part and parcel of the mainstream American comic book landscape at that time. If Eternals or the Fourth World stuff had continued, Kirby wouldn't have worked towards an end point, he would have continued to tell stories for a monthly periodical for as long as he was on the book, meaning until it was cancelled, he left, or was replaced. Series rarely ended if sales were good and rarely continued if they weren't. Series weren't conceived to have an end point. Story lines sure, but not series. If sales had been good and Kirby got to do another year of Eternals we probably wouldn't have gotten an ending, just more stories in the mythos. Some of the story lines may have wrapped up, but the Eternals' story would have kept going. That was pretty much the nature of the beast for Marvel and DC of that era.

    -M
    A lunatic is easily recognized...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense...and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars.
    -Umberto Eco

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