The Ten Cruelest Things Joss Whedon Has Done To His Characters

[marshal99]

It was stupid and unfunny, just one too many "clever", cute things the characters are saying.

I mean this is a movie where Hawkeye doesn't even get called Hawkeye (maybe once I don't really remember), they could have made the same "joke" by calling him Hawkeye. It just seemed really dumb, yeah, we get it, they both have bows, it's like pseudo funny cleverness. It's as cringe inducing as when after Whedon has Fury pointing out what Loki was doing sounded like slavery (only he does come out and say it), a few scenes later he has an old jewish man (who is incredibly jewish so you don't miss the point) stand up and compare Loki to Hitler. No Whedon, you don't get to make two heavy handed points about the same thing in a row, that's just funny, either one on their own would have been funny just because of the way they were made, but you don't stack them...that just makes it funnier.

Also, Lord of the Rings references don't feel like the kind of thing Stark would be making, it just seems like a references that's there because Lord of the Rinds was a huge movie that most have likely seen so we'll all get the reference. The timing of the joke also seemed off, maybe I wouldn't have had time to think about why it wasn't funny in the moment if it was funny.

Oh well , you can't win them all. Every movie will have its critics. Most importantly for marvel studio though , is that the majority of fans loved it and that's what counts.

[marshal99]

The thing about Whedon Buffy or Angel series is that it makes you care for the characters , viewers has a connection to the characters and when they die , the audience really felt it , it's real and gut wrenching.

You take a series like Charmed , can't remember any episode where you really felt the grief of the characters or even supernatural ? When Bobby died , was anyone gut wrenched ?

[finfangfool]

I guess I'm in a tiny minority on Tara, I could never stand her character or the way she seemed to mope around and say things like "I don't know you guys." Just seemed like a lump in the middle of fully formed personalities. Was happy when they offed her character, though sad for some reason for Willow (even though she's a fictional character).

[Colinp42]

Did Spike have a soul yet when he tried to rape her? Oh wait, IIRC the attempt was what lead him to get a soul?

I like to think he would of stopped himself before going through with it.

I still call bullshit on that retcon. All along they wanted us to believe Spike was going to get the chip out - he kept saying "make me like I was before." Then SHOCK at the end he got his soul back! But then beginning of season 7, he starts saying he went specifically to get his soul. So I figured OK, the character is lying and/or is crazy. But then no, in interviews the production team talked about Spike going to intentionally get his soul back. Maybe that's what the writers intended, but if so they did not tell the actor, because that's not how he played it. "Bitch is going to get what's coming to her!" No, the subtext of that was not "a loving boyfriend with a soul." That scene was played out as him trying to get his potency back and instead being deceived by the monster or demon or whatever it was.

And I agree that Buffy season 2 finale should have been in there somewhere. Yes, Fred's death is heartbreaking, but I have watched that finale at least 15 times, and I tear up every single time. And it's actually sadder AFTER the first time you watched it, once you know to watch the season listening for the Buffy/Angel leitmotif - when it frigging starts playing again when Angel gets his soul back, and then culminates with her stabbing him...SOB!

EDIT: And finfang, I agree on Tara at first, but I think they let her grow while she was separated from Willow. The episode where she came to Buffy's party I thought showed her as a much stronger individual. So then they killed her pretty much right when this "new" Tara got back with Willow :(

[thinkingcog]

I still call bullshit on that retcon. All along they wanted us to believe Spike was going to get the chip out - he kept saying "make me like I was before." Then SHOCK at the end he got his soul back! But then beginning of season 7, he starts saying he went specifically to get his soul. So I figured OK, the character is lying and/or is crazy. But then no, in interviews the production team talked about Spike going to intentionally get his soul back. Maybe that's what the writers intended, but if so they did not tell the actor, because that's not how he played it. "Bitch is going to get what's coming to her!" No, the subtext of that was not "a loving boyfriend with a soul." That scene was played out as him trying to get his potency back and instead being deceived by the monster or demon or whatever it was.

And I agree that Buffy season 2 finale should have been in there somewhere. Yes, Fred's death is heartbreaking, but I have watched that finale at least 15 times, and I tear up every single time. And it's actually sadder AFTER the first time you watched it, once you know to watch the season listening for the Buffy/Angel leitmotif - when it frigging starts playing again when Angel gets his soul back, and then culminates with her stabbing him...SOB!

EDIT: And finfang, I agree on Tara at first, but I think they let her grow while she was separated from Willow. The episode where she came to Buffy's party I thought showed her as a much stronger individual. So then they killed her pretty much right when this "new" Tara got back with Willow :(

This. I always thought the Spike thing was the character lying. That he had intended to get the chip and that one of these days he was going to be called on it, even if took years (See Xander finally being taken to task over pretending Willow had given him the message "Kick (Angel's) ass in "Becoming". It then seems that the writers seized on this opportunity to make Spike seem more heroic. It felt a little cheap to be honest.

[Surtur]

I honestly never had a problem with Fred's fate. It was tragic..and sometimes that can make for good tv. Plus I liked the character of Illyria and her interactions with Wesley. Destroying her soul might of been a bit much, but I like to think she went to heaven instead of just fading out of existence.

Then again, I'd sometimes wonder if just fading away would be that bad? I'm sure heaven is fun, but it's hard to imagine being there forever. Even being reunited with lost loved ones is probably going to get old after hundreds/thousands of years..let alone if we're talking being there for all eternity.

[Lestov16]

Before I even clicked on the thread, I knew the number 1 was going to be Fred. Such a pure person, and then to not only die, but have their soul destroyed so that it has no chance of an afterlife was beyond cruel. I think Angelus may have been involved in the writing process of that arc.

[Lestov16]

To be fair, in Bobby's case, it was because he had already died many episodes before, and considering the, well, supernatural circumstances of the show, death is most certainly not permanent.Bobby's had it coming for a while, since he's died the least out of the main cast, not to mention Jim Beaver said a long while back that he wanted to take some time off. Besides, we already saw Dean and Sam's heartbreak over Bobby in the episodes before the realized Bobby was contacting them.

If you look at the "Death's Door" episode as the episode where Bobby "officially" died, I would say there were some gut-wrenching moments.

[listenuscrewheads]

I'm not gonna look at the list, as I am halfway through the second season of Dollhouse at the moment, and don't want any spoilers. I would have been spoiled for Supernatural reading a couple of posts there, but for the fact I accidently spoiled it for myself when reading of the show's renewal, a few days ago. eh, lol.

It is only truly cruel when killing off a character if they have not fuillfilled their creative potential. Joss said he later regretted killing off the female vampire from ep 1 of season 4, I think she was called Sunny, anyway, yeah, I was shocked when I first saw that ep and she was offed, as she seemed like a character who would be re-occuring, a good villan for Buffy being another female who was good at taking the piss out of her, and got her scared at one point iirc.

[Colinp42]

You're in such a good place! Before they realize they have to wrap up the whole series and give a plot twist that makes no sense if you actually go back and watch earlier episodes!

Sunday. Sundae? Yeah, she didn't do much for me. I couldn't imagine several episodes with her.

[MagSeven]

I guess I'm in a tiny minority on Tara, I could never stand her character or the way she seemed to mope around and say things like "I don't know you guys." Just seemed like a lump in the middle of fully formed personalities. Was happy when they offed her character, though sad for some reason for Willow (even though she's a fictional character).

I never really liked Tara either, but I didn't want her dead or anything. I think the episode that showed her messed up family made the character a bit more appealing to me. Though I have to admit I did laugh when Spike punched her in the face to prove she wasn't part demon.

[Mat001]

Eh, Anya seemed like a pointless death to me.

There was a point. He wanted one of the main characters to die. But he didn't want to kill Buffy, Willow, Xander, Dawn and Giles. Spike was going over to "Angel" and he had too much fun with Andrew to want to kill him. So that left Anya.

There are times I question if that rape scene was even Whedon's idea

He wasn't as heavily involved during that part of the season, he was working on setting up "Firefly".

Marsters recently discussed that scene in an interview: http://whedonesque.com/comments/28208

essentially he explains it was written by a woman, to describe a painful real world moment, where she was trying to keep a relationship going by pushing sex. He notes it just didn't carry the same message when they flipped the genders.
(I still see the scene as Spike trying to initiate the violent sex they'd been enjoying for some time. not intending rape. but the point being that how people react to your actions is more important that your intent).

Right. And he's never been comfortable with that episode.

Did Spike have a soul yet when he tried to rape her? Oh wait, IIRC the attempt was what lead him to get a soul?

I like to think he would of stopped himself before going through with it.

Right. Buffy says, "Ask me again why I can't trust you." That's when it finally hit him why she was with Angel, both before and after he had lost his soul.

I still call bullshit on that retcon. All along they wanted us to believe Spike was going to get the chip out - he kept saying "make me like I was before." Then SHOCK at the end he got his soul back! But then beginning of season 7, he starts saying he went specifically to get his soul. So I figured OK, the character is lying and/or is crazy. But then no, in interviews the production team talked about Spike going to intentionally get his soul back. Maybe that's what the writers intended, but if so they did not tell the actor, because that's not how he played it. "Bitch is going to get what's coming to her!" No, the subtext of that was not "a loving boyfriend with a soul." That scene was played out as him trying to get his potency back and instead being deceived by the monster or demon or whatever it was.

It wasn't a retcon. It was a clever bit of misdirection. That's why it worked. He couldn't be loving which is why it was played as if he was going back to being evil.

[MagSeven]

This. I always thought the Spike thing was the character lying. That he had intended to get the chip and that one of these days he was going to be called on it, even if took years (See Xander finally being taken to task over pretending Willow had given him the message "Kick (Angel's) ass in "Becoming". It then seems that the writers seized on this opportunity to make Spike seem more heroic. It felt a little cheap to be honest.

I never heard the late retcon theory. It's interesting, but I saw no problem with how that situation actually played out. The "I'll give the bitch what's coming to her" line could absolutely mean his soul. Buffy was using him as much as he was using her, albeit for different reasons. Him becoming re-souled would be Spike's way of showing he wasn't going to be "hurt" by her anymore and to also hurt her in the process by showing her that she was just as bad as him at times. Although, I'm still not sure how you hurt a soulless creature emotionally. I guess that's a trait unique to him. I absolutely hated that rape scene though. Super uncomfortable to watch and almost damaged both those characters for me forever (but I guess that was the point of it, but still).

[superchick]

Yup, they all suck but I can accept all of them as essential elements to the story....with one exception.

I will never understand or accept the attempted rape by Spike. The last time through that I watched the series, I specifically skipped that scene.

What bothers me about that scene is that after that they still decided go down a 'romantic' path. Its pretty clear the Spike storyline was a metaphor for Buffy's self harm when she came back from the dead but to romanticize that was a mistake.

I'd have to say that Buffy killing Angel and getting kicked out of home by her mother and of school in the space of 24 hours had to be the worst. Then, when Buffy starts to move on, Angel comes back. I don't know what is crueller.

I never really liked Tara either, but I didn't want her dead or anything. I think the episode that showed her messed up family made the character a bit more appealing to me. Though I have to admit I did laugh when Spike punched her in the face to prove she wasn't part demon.

Tara wouldn't be one tenth as popular if she wasn't part of a gay relationship. I just found her extremely weak as a character. I love characters with power in their personalities and Tara could have built that but she moped and swooned and in the end went nowhere but to drive Willow nuts. The only good love interest Willow ever had was Oz.

[Mat001]

What bothers me about that scene is that after that they still decided go down a 'romantic' path. Its pretty clear the Spike storyline was a metaphor for Buffy's self harm when she came back from the dead but to romanticize that was a mistake.

Spike didn't quite understand what it really meant to have a soul until he got it back and his conscience returned with it. That is why over time, Buffy was able to be around him again because he knew what he did was wrong. Besides, you think this was bad, one of the most popular couples in daytime soaps started out with a rape. Guy raped the girl, but later on, they fell in love and got married and had kids. How's that for messed up?

Tara wouldn't be one tenth as popular if she wasn't part of a gay relationship. I just found her extremely weak as a character. I love characters with power in their personalities and Tara could have built that but she moped and swooned and in the end went nowhere but to drive Willow nuts. The only good love interest Willow ever had was Oz.

To be fair, being verbally abused to the point of becoming extremely shy is understandable. Willow wasn't what she became at first. It took using vast amounts of black magick to make her into what she was.