How did obscure characters like Buffy, BlackWidow get popular than WonderWoman?

[Dr. Hurt]

(iirc) I think the conversation regarding Marston started when someone claimed WW has never been relevant. Someone else replied with Marston creating her during WWII, and on it went.

Thanks for the answer.

My problem with that line of thinking is that there is only one stagnant civilization portrayed: the Amazon women. The Amazon men, on the other hand, seem to be advancing, at least in terms of technology, and are not resorting to violence. Happy, productive, and tech-savy men. Angry, murdering and backwards women. It isn't just "any civilazation." Also, as I pointed out above, DC doesn't have a happy, productive, advanced civilzation of women to counterbalance this portrayal of the Amazons. (imo) It creates a distorted picture (so far? - perhaps there's more of a good side in store for the ladies later). It's a very male-heavy universe, and taking the Amazons backwards doesn't help that.

They're wusses who just work for Hephaestus. They're not a society. They're just manpower.

[americanwonder]

They're wusses who just work for Hephaestus. They're not a society. They're just manpower.

lol. Not quite how they described themselves. Still, I'm hoping both sides (male and female Amazons) get a little more character than we've been given so far.

[Morlock50]

lol. Not quite how they described themselves. Still, I'm hoping both sides (male and female Amazons) get a little more character than we've been given so far.

On the plus side, the last two issues have been exceptionally well-written and drawn. This might be my favorite depiction of Hades yet!

[timeismoney]

Man what is thread about or suppose to be about if don't nobody mind telling me, because it has gotten away from the OP.

[Morlock50]

Man what is thread about or suppose to be about if don't nobody mind telling me, because it has gotten away from the OP.

Seems like a free-for-all at this point. Just post whatever's on your mind until it's locked :)

[Fate's Faith]

I agree - ban me if they want (no hard feelings), but I'm not going to sit by and watch baseless claims distort what I've said.

eta: Apologies to you and the other community members.

Opinion - a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

When someone says 'I think' or 'it seems' they are stating an opinion. You don't have to like it or accept it but you will not change it by repeating they are wrong. I believe, another opinion, my statement, "I think you are so we'll just have to leave it at that." is the one you're having issue with. I did say earlier we've been down this road before and all to the same result. I'll quote my original post that got you to pull that list of the evils of men out you must keep close by:

"He didn't propose the idea that women had more and better virtues to bring to the world? That's his reality I'm talking about. Its like he never saw a woman cheering at a Hitler speech which I find hard to believe. So he just created this fiction and then used Wonder Woman to spread it. The Amazons were just a means of showing us how he envisioned a world ran by women would work. When in reality the sex pirates are just as valid if not more so since there isn't a true difference. Only individuals can carry those ideas he spoke of and that could be either sex."

See why this is my opinion? I said nothing about women being worse than men. Just stating that I don't see women being better than men. And then off we went you having to prove to me that men are worse than women by listing the evils of men. I see nothing wrong with keeping such a list handy whenever someone states men are better than women but I think it would be nice to actually see someone make that statement first.

[Fate's Faith]

They're wusses who just work for Hephaestus. They're not a society. They're just manpower.

The way I see them also. Well, not wusses. But they don't seem to actually be building anything for themselves and their decendents. More like they are working for Hephaestus while also sleeping there on their off hours. He's given them purpose but no foundation of a life.

[brettc1]

They are instead of society making some seemingly bad decisions to survive like much of the rest of the world and no longer an inspirational source which they never were before.

I thought you were equating the Elves to the Amazons. That to change the Amazons is akin to changing the Elves. Again, we have two societies removed from the world at large. The Elves eventually realized that this removal could doom the world to darkness. Never have the Amazons seen themselves as part of the world whether the outside world knew of their existence or not. If the world ended was no consequence to their existence. As we saw, they only saw fit to send one warrior to battle the darkness engulfing the world. If she failed, they would continue. Even when they made their existence known, they still remained separate from that world at large. People could come and visit to marvel at their achievements but they didn't seem to be as impressed with what the world had acomplished without them. This would be like the Elves allowing Legolas to join the Fellowship but that would be the extent of their involvement. Remember, many of the Elves spoke of the achievements and failures of man. Even the source of the doom of the world but they didn't ever put forth the idea that the removal of man would save the world. Has this changed with the change of the Amazons? Not that much it seems to me. We see idea give way to truth of existence. We see hope through society give way to hope from the individual. Just like the Elves couldn't destroy the Ring but a single hobbit could. That's where I see Diana. She's Frodo.

Weren't their hostels set up in the US in the previous run dedicated to helping women and furthering Amazon Ideals? And I think Diana, as an Amazon, was inspirational. The difference now is that she is inspirational in spite of her Amazon heritage, not as a result of it. I always thought part of Diana's role in the outside world ws to help the sider human race progress to the point where they and the Amazons could be reunited harmoniously.

And as regards Amazons and Elves - these Amazons are evil, and the prevous ones weren't. The premediated murder of someone you have planned to use for sex is not excusable on grounds of cultural bias. Who you are is what you do.

[brettc1]

I think Warner Bros DC should have pushed the tv show or done a cheaper direct to dvd film regardless of difficulties with modernizing the character. You see it now, the blogosphere buzz, the internet search trends. and sadly for WW fans an obscure character now outshines Diana tenfold.
People don't connect with WW like they did in the past. The kids today know other stories, play games on their phones and with other forms of entertainment the new jilted generation don't really buy so many comics, the movie going audience and kids know more about Storm, Catwoman or Black Widow than Wonder Woman. DC, WarnerBros should have pushed Diana and got someone like Joss or JMS to write a live tv show for her, but they won't because they don't need her to make them money. Warner Bros doesn't view DC comicbook Entertainment as their number one bread winner, they have other bankable film franchises like the HarryPotter films and LordOfTheRings which is why Diana and a JL movie will always be second or third place on their list of priorities

If we are talking about Black Widow, then I would say she is no longer an obscure character. But I guess that is your point.

BW and Buffy have the spotlight right now because they are written cleverly and with an eye to audience appeal. Which is not just kicking ass - if that were true the Elektra movie would have been a box office smash. But DC and WB seem only able to present Warrior Woman or Wonder Angst. The thing about Buffy [and BW in the Avengers movie] is that while they both carry baggage they are also a lot of fun.

[BeccaBlast]

The way I see them also. Well, not wusses. But they don't seem to actually be building anything for themselves and their decendents. More like they are working for Hephaestus while also sleeping there on their off hours. He's given them purpose but no foundation of a life.

Hephaestus isn't running a commune -- he's running a forge. His interest in his slaves (the word people keep dancing around) is in having a steady labor supply. There are no descendants to provide for because there are no women around to help with that particular task. There's no time-clock or employee check-in at Etna -- once you're there, you're there, and it's because you had no other place to go. And, oh yeah, he bought you.

A slave owner isn't interested in giving his charges a foundation of a life -- his only interest is giving them the purpose of working for him. That's what Hephaestus has done -- to expect any more is projecting that he isn't really that awful. I would guess the reason for that projection is that there are sympathetic sides to him -- Hera made him lame, Aphrodite and the other Olympians have abused him as well, to the point that he prefers Etna -- but why wouldn't you expect Azzarello to subvert your empathy for him, like he has for Hippolyta and the Amazons? That's his stock in trade as a writer of superhero comics. Heroism is not innate to an Azzarello character; it's thrust upon them. Whether it's Superman, Hephaestus, the motley crew of Architecture and Morality or Diana -- an Azzarello hero does what they do because as much as they would prefer not to have to do it, someone does, and they're the ones in a position to do so.

Hephaestus bought the boys because he needed workers and he knew what would happen to them if he didn't. That makes him a slaveowner for altruistic reasons, but still a slaveowner. That people are noticing the slaves have nothing to their lives other than to work for their savior says more about Hephaestus than a long-winded exposition ever would.

[Gaelforce]

Okay, guys, nobody is getting banned, but there have been deletions and edits.

Discuss the topic, not the people.

As to the topic, so long as it stays on Wonder Woman or WW related issues, I doubt it will get locked (not by me anyway) but enough with the discussion of the validity and veracity of someone's opinions. If you are uncertain as to what someone meant, then ask, don't accuse.

<refills the watering can>

[fanboiii]

Hephaestus bought the boys because he needed workers and he knew what would happen to them if he didn't. That makes him a slaveowner for altruistic reasons, but still a slaveowner. That people are noticing the slaves have nothing to their lives other than to work for their savior says more about Hephaestus than a long-winded exposition ever would.

Hephaestus sympathized with the men and they saw him as a father figure. His main reason wasn't labor because he could have built robots like in Greek myth.

Wonder Woman #7
Man 1: We owe the smith our lives. If it wasn't for him, we would have been thrown in the tide to drown, unloved.
Hephaestus: As my mother did to me. Something I could never allow.
Man 2: He wanted us and he raised us.
Man 3. Here we are artists.
Man 1: And we are happy.

Compassion was the main reason. Hephaestus is traditionally a kind god. Also, they aren't slaves as they were given a choice by WW and they all opted to stay. They didn't describe their labor as slavish. They called themselves artists which means they have creative freedom and they're happy. I don't really see anything holding them back if they wanted to escape. Hephaestus is lame and they could easily take the weapons to use against him. They are hardly slaves. It's more like a family-run company. Besides, I think most guys are into weapons and being an artist is a fulfilling occupation.

[Gaelforce]

Hephaestus sympathized with the men and they saw him as a father figure. His main reason wasn't labor because he could have built robots like in Greek myth.



Compassion was the main reason. Hephaestus is traditionally a kind god. Also, they aren't slaves as they were given a choice by WW and they all opted to stay. They didn't describe their labor as slavish. They called themselves artists which means they have creative freedom and they're happy. I don't really see anything holding them back if they wanted to escape. Hephaestus is lame and they could easily take the weapons to use against him. They are hardly slaves. It's more like a family-run company. Besides, I think most guys are into weapons and being an artist is a fulfilling occupation.

Classic Stockholm Syndrome.

They don't know anything else. They call him Master.

Do they have the choice to leave?

Do they have the choice to be anything else other than smiths in his forge?

Sure he took them as opposed to letting them be slaughtered, but he bought them, he keeps them, he feeds them, they work for him.

Do they get paid?

Sure they love him, but my puppy that I rescued from being in the shelter loves me, too. Doesn't mean she is free ;)

Seriously - whether or not they are slaves has absolutely nothing to do with (a) why he did it or (b) how happy they are. Slaves who are treated well by their masters, no matter how happy they are, are still slaves. Choice and compensation are the difference and we don't know if either was provided.

[fanboiii]

Classic Stockholm Syndrome.

They don't know anything else. They call him Master.

Do they have the choice to leave?

Does that make Alfred Batman's slave? I think they call Hephaestus master as in the master smith. It's a trade with a master/apprentice relationship.

Yes, they have the choice to leave. That was most clear with WW's intervention. If they leave, they could do whatever or they can still be smiths working on their own. Having those skills are useful in all sorts of fields. They could be sculptors, jewelers, engineers, etc.

They obviously knew the circumstances in which they were acquired so Hephaestus was honest from the start.

We don't know whether they are paid or not. Who knows, maybe they get a commission. Maybe they don't see a need to get paid.

There's immediate evidence that shows they are not slaves, so there's no reason to presuppose they are slaves and reason backwards. For all we know, anyone who wanted to leave was allowed, and the only people there are simply loyal to Hephaestus, the father who raised them. That's not Classic Stockholm Syndrome. He didn't kidnap them. He adopted them as babies.

[Lotech]

I think Warner Bros DC should have pushed the tv show or done a cheaper direct to dvd film regardless of difficulties with modernizing the character. You see it now, the blogosphere buzz, the internet search trends. and sadly for WW fans an obscure character now outshines Diana tenfold.
People don't connect with WW like they did in the past. The kids today know other stories, play games on their phones and with other forms of entertainment the new jilted generation don't really buy so many comics, the movie going audience and kids know more about Storm, Catwoman or Black Widow than Wonder Woman. DC, WarnerBros should have pushed Diana and got someone like Joss or JMS to write a live tv show for her, but they won't because they don't need her to make them money. Warner Bros doesn't view DC comicbook Entertainment as their number one bread winner, they have other bankable film franchises like the HarryPotter films and LordOfTheRings which is why Diana and a JL movie will always be second or third place on their list of priorities

TV Show= advertising.