How did obscure characters like Buffy, BlackWidow get popular than WonderWoman?

[dshipp17]

Oh come on now. You know damn well that wife beaters dont need much to hit their wifes. All she has to do is to talk back, refuse to do something, or fail to do something successfully. And then she gets beat up.

Is that provoking? Is that justified? Seriously man.

No, I don't think he's saying that your examples amount to provocation; your examples are also extreme and appear to be a situation that's been brewing for a while; what he's pointing out is more moderate cases where women will goad and provoke men who are not usually as violent but get that way after a prolonged period of time; of course, it's equally his responsibility to come to the realization that this relationship is probably not right for him and move on, before devolving into someone prone to violence and eventually getting labeled as a wife beater; usually, there should always be a way out before striking someone, but one can come up with a few exceptions; but, it's also the woman's responsibility to judge a situation and consider that provoking a man who has a demonstrated history of snapping at people might quickly snap at her and proceed to start beating on her; however, the wife beater situation gets played up because she wants to remain with this guy for some reason, where, eventually, you're extreme examples might manifest itself; however, when pointing out provocation, clearly you're examples are not the only occasions that comes to mind.

[brettc1]

I still don't see it unless you are completely rewriting LotR since if the elves are Nazis then who are they teaming up against? Now if you are taking the idea of the master race then maybe since then you are downplaying the evil of the Nazis and upping the racial dislike of the elves. And this about no one mourning the Amazons suggests we mourn the passing of any group. Is that the case because there seems to be evidence that the world mourns for no group except members of our own.

Bearing in mind that DC and comic universes often represent ideals as much as anything else, I think you will find a few people who mourn the passing of the Amazons as they were.

And you are correct - making the Elves into Nazis would indeed be completely rewriting the Lord of the Rings. Which is sort of my point.

[brettc1]

Fact: all things are not equal. Fact: violence is not committed equally by the sexes. You can try to place the blame on socialization or genes or hormones or whatever (as if men can't make desions for themselves or what?); you can even play hypothetical games about what the world might look like if things were equal. But the fact remains, more men commit more violent crime. Even with the development of guns, where anyone can pull a trigger, women do not shoot other people as often as men do. Shying away from the facts doesn't change the facts.

Again, I am not saying all men are evil, nor am I saying all women are good. Far from it. On the individual level, women commit all kinds of terrible acts, including very ugly acts of violence. But if Superman and friends where to round up everyone who has committed a violent crime, then seperate them by sex, we would see very clearly that the men outnumber the women. It's a very ugly reality of our world.

The advent of cyber-bullying has sadly done a lot to level the playing field when it comes to females perpertrating acts of abuse against others. And while boys in the playground tend to display acts of physical agression, girls seem to display just as many acts of psychological and emotional agression. So if you only take into account physicla violence in your round up then anyone how has perpetrated long term emotional abuse gets a free pass.

But even in terms of physical violence, it seems females are bridging the gap

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-1882111.html

Record numbers of women are being arrested for violent crimes, it was revealed today.

Annual criminal justice statistics showed 88,139 women were arrested for violent offences in a single year - or nearly 250 every day.

Violence against the person - a category which includes manslaughter, assault and grievous bodily harm - accounted for 35% of all crimes committed by women.

Since 2002, the number of women arrested for violent crimes has more than doubled. At the turn of the century the figure was 37,100.

[Boonciaver]

And now we're really getting off topic here

[Don-Jack]

I just said "misandry by Amazons" and now people are saying they would be "bad, mean, murders ohmigod"
I get that this have influence by the actual statement of Azzarello's run, and it will be great when he shows more stuff about the Amazons and people bite their tongues.
He showed one side of the story and people get all crazy. First, until now the "revelation" about Amazons had nothing to do with the story. Obviously there will be more revelations about their true nature.

[Fate's Faith]

Again, I am not saying all men are evil

I think you are so we'll just have to leave it at that.

[Fate's Faith]

Bearing in mind that DC and comic universes often represent ideals as much as anything else, I think you will find a few people who mourn the passing of the Amazons as they were.

I'm assuming you mean in the previous universe. This one only has a hint they exist. But even so, aren't you saying they will mourn the actual ideas the Amazons brought which was what? That men are inheritely evil that in order of an utopia to succeed they must be removed from the equation. Remember, their perfect society was built without men and it was only at its pinnicle (assuming their advancement had increased as years past) that they offered those ideas to the world. We don't yet know enough about this version of the Amazons but again whatever achievements they've managed isn't something possible for the world at large since it didn't include half the population. It makes better sense to me to completely take that off the table. They are instead of society making some seemingly bad decisions to survive like much of the rest of the world and no longer an inspirational source which they never were before.

And you are correct - making the Elves into Nazis would indeed be completely rewriting the Lord of the Rings. Which is sort of my point.

I thought you were equating the Elves to the Amazons. That to change the Amazons is akin to changing the Elves. Again, we have two societies removed from the world at large. The Elves eventually realized that this removal could doom the world to darkness. Never have the Amazons seen themselves as part of the world whether the outside world knew of their existence or not. If the world ended was no consequence to their existence. As we saw, they only saw fit to send one warrior to battle the darkness engulfing the world. If she failed, they would continue. Even when they made their existence known, they still remained separate from that world at large. People could come and visit to marvel at their achievements but they didn't seem to be as impressed with what the world had acomplished without them. This would be like the Elves allowing Legolas to join the Fellowship but that would be the extent of their involvement. Remember, many of the Elves spoke of the achievements and failures of man. Even the source of the doom of the world but they didn't ever put forth the idea that the removal of man would save the world. Has this changed with the change of the Amazons? Not that much it seems to me. We see idea give way to truth of existence. We see hope through society give way to hope from the individual. Just like the Elves couldn't destroy the Ring but a single hobbit could. That's where I see Diana. She's Frodo.

[americanwonder]

Well, yeah, you didn't say it, but you're implying it; or, what point are you trying to make by supporting a case that men might be more violent than women? Clearly, you're trying to make men into villains or support some unstated point (and, again, what is that point), if it's not to make a case that men are more evil than men...

I think you are so we'll just have to leave it at that.

This is crap! I am really tired of these B.S. accusations! I am NOT implying all men are evil!

If that's the message you get, then it's because you are inferring it. You're reading into it something that isn't there.

Try to stick with speaking for yourself. You do a very poor job of speaking for me.

[americanwonder]

No, Azzarello is saying that any civilization that isolates itself on an island for millinia would end up like that. It's nothing personal against women or the Amazons...

My problem with that line of thinking is that there is only one stagnant civilization portrayed: the Amazon women. The Amazon men, on the other hand, seem to be advancing, at least in terms of technology, and are not resorting to violence. Happy, productive, and tech-savy men. Angry, murdering and backwards women. It isn't just "any civilazation." Also, as I pointed out above, DC doesn't have a happy, productive, advanced civilzation of women to counterbalance this portrayal of the Amazons. (imo) It creates a distorted picture (so far? - perhaps there's more of a good side in store for the ladies later). It's a very male-heavy universe, and taking the Amazons backwards doesn't help that.

... Also, i think his point is to make WW's corner of the DCU like greek myths and stories actually exist in 2012. Not Amazons with spaceships, but actual ancient Amazons with armors and all that. To give you an example, it's like Miller's 300 exists in the same world and time as Batman...

Funny you would use "300" as an example. "300" (the movie, haven't read the book) did a pretty good job sugar-coating the Spartans, painting them is a favorable light (eg, the Helots).

In Azzarello's WW, the gods themselves have been updated - I don't see why the portrayal of the Amazons has to go backwards 2,000+ years in order to exist in 2012, neglecting to use some of the mythical versions that were more favorable to the Amazons. Jedi had glowy swords and still used space ships - seemed to work out just fine for the movie audience. Percy Jackson and mythical friends, all modern folks, still use swords and knives to get the job done - worked out pretty well for the book series, even the movie is getting a sequel.

... Dont forget how they used Hercules as a strawman for all men. If even Hercules is a mindless raping monster, imagine what all men are like!

Um, Steve says, "no." I think your statement oversimplifies things. I think there's a good arguement that Marston distorted the popular version of Hercules. But I don't think it's accurate to say that Marston thought all men were like that. Steve obviously wasn't. Nor was every other man in the WW comics. Marston didn't even have men as the only bad guys.

But nobody answered me. What's this sudden need to go back to Marston? Why didnt anyone need that when Rucka was writing the book? He wasnt writing the book in Marston's spirit.

(iirc) I think the conversation regarding Marston started when someone claimed WW has never been relevant. Someone else replied with Marston creating her during WWII, and on it went.

Personally, I don't need for everything from Marston's WW to never change. I do think it's favorable to try and keep much of the spirit though.

[Fate's Faith]

This is crap! I am really tired of these B.S. accusations! I am NOT implying all men are evil!

If that's the message you get, then it's because you are inferring it. You're reading into it something that isn't there.

Try to stick with speaking for yourself. You do a very poor job of speaking for me.

Sorry but I do think you're speaking for yourself. I may think Fords are wonderful cars to drive except they rarely crank, they use gas more than anything else, the paint is more liable to crack before other brands, the seats are some of the most uncomfortable I've ever used, they can't design anything as cool as most other brands and their new car smell smells like decay. But they are wonderful cars. So, you aren't saying men are evil and I'm not saying Fords are bad cars.

[americanwonder]

... So if you only take into account physicla violence in your round up then anyone how has perpetrated long term emotional abuse gets a free pass.

It was never my intention to give emotional absue a "free pass." Bullying, cyber or otherwise, is terrible.

I only brought up the physical violence as context for Marston's WW - War vs. Love. He lived through both World Wars. That's bullying on a much bigger scale.

[americanwonder]

So, you aren't saying men are evil ...

Didn't you say, "I think you are" in reponse to my, "Again, I am not saying all men are evil"?

Are you not trying to imply that you think I am saying all men are evil?

Please clarify what you meant.

[RandomFalls]

Wow does this thread ever need the watering can.

[americanwonder]

Again, I am not saying all men are evil, nor am I saying all women are good. Far from it. On the individual level, women commit all kinds of terrible acts, including very ugly acts of violence...

Women have committed every violent crime: murder, assault, abuse, rape, etc.

But when we do the math, the number of women committing violent crime does not add up to the number of men committing violent crime. This is not a judgment on my part for either sex; it's a big-picture look at societal trends as a whole. Violent crimes are not an equal 50-50% split.

Again, I never said all men are evil. I never said women don't do evil things. I never inferred that a murder committed by a woman is nothing. Your accusations about me and what I've said are meritless B.S.

[americanwonder]

Wow does this thread ever need the watering can.

I agree - ban me if they want (no hard feelings), but I'm not going to sit by and watch baseless claims distort what I've said.

eta: Apologies to you and the other community members.