The Bad Guys of AvX?

[mikekerrIII]

Well... Phoenix just ate a crapload of planets. That kinda sucks. And it's making everyone all angry. I'm just going to call it as Phoenix is the bad guy.

That is is like calling time, or the tide bad guys.

Well, of course the X-Fans are gonna see the Avengers as the bad guys. Then again, most of them are zealots who will follow Cyclops without a second thought.

When you combine their "black and white" thinking with an overwhelming need to demonize anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint, you understand how we end up with Teabaggers.

Me? I think there are plenty of good X-Men, but the Avengers have walked into a quagmire. Cyclops has many disciples, and trying to reason with them before the Earth is destroyed is a recipe for insanity.

And that is supposed to be anything but jingoistic fan babble? They follow Cyke becasue they know that so fa he has made choices that have saved the X-men. Why do the Avengers follow a torturer?

Despite Gage's pointing out that the cover was metaphorical in interviews, and holding up the "concentration camp" comparisons as ridiculous via in-issue impartial dialogue, some fans have latched on to the idea and refused to let it go; hence inflammatory and unfounded claims of "torturing" Martha, etc.

It is referenced in the story it is just another prison to the utopia kids. they are being held prisoner by their enemies. And as of the latest issue they are being held by force.

Ugh. This, again. Held against their will? Yes. But so is the kid told to go to his room by his mother. Kidnapped? No. When you write a lengthy and detailed post about how you feel Rao and Jeffries are evil child-catching slavers selling their charges to the vile Avengers, then you can happily say "kidnapped". But you're not going to, so you don't get to.

ROA and Jeffries have no authority over the kids, they are scientists who work separately from the kids and nobody would but either of THOSE two in charge of mutant children if they knew their histories

I really don't get what makes this time so different. Kid/teen superheroes fight in battles all the time. Early Spider-Man, Young Avengers, Young Allies, New Warriors. Hell, they used the Academy during FI. Why is it now that all of a sudden everybody is concerned? Everybody seemed all right with kids making their own decisions until now.

It is OK when the Avengers do it, and has been the norm at Marvel since the sixties, but now when kids are bucking Cap it is evil. And How is having kids be combatants just a X-man thing Cap tasked the AA kids with keeping the Utopians prisoner that is not keeping even the AA kids out of the line of fire.

Jeffries and Rao are acting in the role, though, and that's who I'm referring to as well you know.

Who put them in that role? definitely not the X-men.

I look at this from another perspective.The courts can take children and teens away from their parents or guardian if it is determanned they are being abused or neglected or in a dangerous situation.The children have no say.They may end up in a tempoary shelter until they can be put in foster care.Thousands of youths end up in foster care every year.I was a temperary Ward of the Court from the age of 12 until I was 19,so I know from personal experience.

What court is involved in this, a military force took the kids and is holding them in custody, no courts or laws involved at all.

Too be fair X-Men are never helpful to Avengers either whenever their was an apocalyptic threat from past events.
That and their whole lets blame the Avengers for not saving Genosha really pissed me off.

Most of the flack is from not even appearing to give a damn afterwards, then pulling BS like what Stark did at the Concentration Camp. It ususaly only get brought up when Avengers are big footing the X-men

The Avengers are most definitley not the bad guys here. The Avengers didn't start the brawl, but they will finish what Cyclops started.

I tend to think that the guys who came to commit a kidnapping and brought an Army to do so started the fight. It's not like Cap would have left peacefully, he was told to leave before the fight started.

[tigerkaya]

Most of the flack is from not even appearing to give a damn afterwards, then pulling BS like what Stark did at the Concentration Camp. It ususaly only get brought up when Avengers are big footing the X-men

Hey just like the X-Men. They don't give a crap unless it pertains to mutants.

[timeismoney]

I find a lot of the guys on these forums a just cry babies now to the topic. First Scott has been a asshole for sometime now, and the Avenger will throw hands with anyone they think is getting in their way of saving the world. The thing that i find funny is people, think just because someone is a good guy they should agree on everything. So if we look at like that then it make since that the, X Men and Avenger would go at seeing as the X Men have a lot of villains on their team. What the story come down to that most people can't see because, some hate for Marvel do you risk the world for a single group. So it make since for the Avengers and X Men to have different points of view.

[Habis]

The Avengers aren´t the bad guys; Wolverine is going too fast, trying to preventively kill Hope, but the other Avengers are just trying to keep the planet-destroying Cosmic Horror far from Earth; if they had Hope, they probably would put her in a time travel or dimension-hopping machine so the Phoenix couldn´t find her, but they wouldn´t hurt her. And let me remind you, the X-Men rejected Wanda´s help and wanted to put her "on trial", because she isn´t her "Messiah" and they have already put her in the "enemy of the mutant race" box.

As I said in another thread, I´m pissed at the way the X-Men (and their writers) are handling the "Messiah" issue...They are acting just like religious fanatic nutsos!.

To tell the truth, they have always been acting a bit like that, treating evolution as a sort of prophecy and mutation as a gift of destiny, taking for granted that they are the new owners of the planet (evolution doesn´t work like that guys, it is a process, not a prophecy; it is not as if you don´t have competition, after all: There are atlanteans, inhumans, eternals, deviants, gods, demons, alien hybrids, super-evolved animals [new humans], transgenic part-animal or part-alien people. warpies...etc., and that´s even before taking into account that lately the children of non-mutant superheroes, lacking the X-gene are no longer considered mutants [alternate future Spidergirl in her own collection, alternate future hulk children in Old Man Logan collection, Quake of Shield...]).

But now they are far too over the top: A mutant baby is born and suddenly they all decide that she is the Messiah that is going to restore mutankin... where did that come from? I would understand it if they had treated her as the scientific key to research how to restore mutant race, studying the circunstances of her conception and birth and trying to reproduce it...but the act from day one as if she were some sort of prophet!

Bishop apparently knew that she would restore the powers of mutankin (according to Madrox time travel) but he hates her and wants to kill her; if he had spoken about her to the X-men, he would have described her as an horrible monster, not as a Messiah...

And the Phoenix...Ugh! They are all speaking of how the coming of the Phoenix is thing of Destiny, as if some mutant-loving God had sent Hope to the X-Men and then the Phoenix to Hope to save mutankin...they know better, those are people who have met the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Galactus, Uatu, Odin, Mephisto, Mistress Death..., they know the Universe doesn´t give a s**t about mutants and that they are less that insects for the Cosmic Beings...why would anybody send the Phoenix to them? Who arranged it? What gives them the confidence that the Phoenix will be friendly or that Hope will be able to control it? That thing (the Phoenix) is destroying planets right now!

But nooooo! the planet-burning, star-eating, universe-destroying Phoenix is coming to help them with their little problems because they are SO special and important!

Worst of all, they rejected Wanda´s help, but they are now willing to trust the genocidal cosmic firebird that is destroying dozens or hundreds of inhabited planets in its way to Earth...apparently depowering the mutant race while suffering a mental breakdown is a greater crime than killing whole civilizations, from their point of view...

[AdamYJ]

Really? See, I love hero vs. hero stories (IF done right). Thunderbolts vs. Underbolts was EPIC!!!!

Well, I think the problem is generally that I've never really had a competitive mindset. It's one of the reasons I never particularly cared for sports or took stock in the whole Marvel vs DC rivalry. I just really can't get myself to root for one side over the other, even though I'm sure these stories are designed to promote just such a thing. And what bothers me right now is that I'm only reading two Marvel books right now: Avengers Academy and Wolverine and the X-Men. Both books have essentially been hijacked by this storyline that revolves around a conflict where I honestly don't give a damn who wins.

[Nomads1]

What I was trying to address here is that people condemn events for for being too large or not War and Peace and that is just not fair or accurate.

True, it doesn't have to be War and Peace (which can also get quite boring in certain parts. I read it for school, many years ago). But does it have to be also a cheap Harlequin novel? (that's the only thing I could come up with that was low brow enough,) If I'm going to put out money for it (And I should say that I'm not for AvsX, and the jury is still out if I will in TPB), I expect better effort then, IMHO, we've been getting from Marvel with it's companywide events.

Peace

[Lascoden]

Hey just like the X-Men. They don't give a crap unless it pertains to mutants.

Keeping mutants safe is a full time job, and doesn't really leave room for anything else. And even then, they still manage to save the whole world all the goddamn time. Just like the
Avengers.

[tigerkaya]

Keeping mutants safe is a full time job, and doesn't really leave room for anything else. And even then, they still manage to save the whole world all the goddamn time. Just like the
Avengers.

I know I was just keeping the battle ground even.

[Old Sparky]

So, reading the discussion on here...I'm picking up that many people think that the Avengers are the bad guys in AvX....but I don't understand how people have come to this conclusion. Trying to take a person off the planet who is more than likely signalling a destructive fire bird...that seems like a wise course of action. What am I missing?

What you're missing is that Cyclops is trying to act like a martyr because some people are telling him they won't stand idly by while he puts the entire world (mutants included) at risk based on the belief that everyone hates mutants and a giant flaming bird of destruction is coming to magically save his people from extinction... and even if it does do that, who gives a damn if the rest of humanity is wiped out or even only partially killed off. Mutants must be given this magical chance of resurgence no matter what the cost.

He sent out a press release trying to demonize the Avengers just to get some sympathy or understanding from a world he already believes doesn't care about him or his people. It goes like this (with some notes by me highlighted after each statement.)

A LETTER TO HUMANITY
Get the message: Mutants are humans too, you were just born a little different. Having powers does not make you a race nor does it make you a culture... maybe a sub-species or sub-culture at best.

Today, agents of the United States government came to our house to try to take a girl into their custody.
Yes they did. Authorized agents of the United States government... acting with authority to do so.

They will attempt to mitigate this by saying it wasn't an arrest.
And it wasn't. Any claim to the contrary makes you a drama queen.

I ask you, if someone arrives at your front door, wanting to take away your family without any justification or permission, what would you call it?
Well, let's see. It could be for questioning... or protective custody... or for the sake of protecting everybody else. If your family member had a highly contagious disease that could quickly spread and possibly wipe out an entire city, taking that person into custody so they could be quarentined and/or treated is not an arrest... not even if you refuse to accept the authority of the authorized government agents or claim that you can better treat the family member or provide better isolation. You may not like it, but its not always your call to make.

This is worse than an arrest. This is an attempted kidnapping.
What's worse is the over-dramatizing. Again, authorized agents of the U.S. government showed up. They're not kidnapping, they want to take the girl into protective custody... but what boils down to essentially religious fanatacism prevents you from looking at the situation rationally, so you'll cry and claim persecution like you do about everything because apparently if you have been genuinely persecuted then ALL actions which you don't agree with MUST be persecution also.

They will also attempt to justify this by saying "This girl is dangerous."
She is dangerous. Maybe not on her own, but the fact that a giant flaming bird of destruction is coming to hook up with her makes her a threat. Its not guaranteed that she will become the Dark Phoenix like Jean Grey did, but you can't guarantee that she won't either. And rather than admit that there could be a possible threat to life on earth as well/in place of/as a result of as a boon to mutants, you ignore the danger and chance untold loss of life on the hope that the great bird of destruction also lives up to its promise of rebirth.

By which they mean "She is a mutant."
Nice blatant lie. Its not because she's a mutant and you know it. Its because of that big flaming bird of destruction I just mentioned, but I guess its okay to lie if it makes people like mutants a little more, right?

We have seen that mutant sovereignty, even if confined to a single island, will never be respected. WE will never be respected. Those who claim to fight for a better world are those who would keep us on our knees. Their Jackboot rises only so it can crash down harder.
First of all, "never"? Weren't you welcomed into San Francisco? Don't you have non-mutant friends and allies? (Well, maybe not after you recklessly endanger the planet based on fanatic beliefs, but still there were prior to this idiot move.) Also, just because you declare it doesn't mean you have it. It takes a lot more than telling the world that you want to be respected as a sovereign nation to become one. And if you want the borders of your imagined sovereignty respected, maybe don't draw them within the United States territory.

Previously, I have made threats. I implied there would be a price to pay for a transgression like this. I noted that we possess the power to destroy whole cities if those who persecuted us did not relent. I said that if we were pushed, there would be consequences.
There ya go... that'll get you respect. The same way any bully gets it: "Do what I say or I'll punch you in the nose... or set your house on fire."

They pushed us.
Because you were an uncooperative dick. Here's a thought: When they came to "kidnap" your messiah, why not ask, "I'm concerned about the situation also. Can we go with her?" instead of blasting a duly authorized representative of the United States government with enough force to level a small mountain? Oh, right... uncooperative dick.

We have been just been proven liars. Be grateful we aren't as bad as you think we are.
That's good. Gain sympathy by acknowledging a negative trait by calling yourselves liars. And "be grateful" that you're not as bad as we think you are? How about "as bad as we tried to make you think we were with our threats of demolishing your cities." You are as bad as we think you are with your bully tactics and refusal to accept the same laws as govern the rest of civilized society. I guess being a mutant means you get to reject any law you find inconvenient as persecuting you for your "race."

In the days that come, remember this was not of our choosing. But know that even if we forgive it, we will not forget the day when our worst fears were proved true. That even those who claimed to be our friends thought us property.
And then the next time you start asking where anyone else was when your mutant persecution problems are, remember that no one else is forgetting this either. Your worst fears were proven true? How about that mutants are willing to endanger the entire world on the hope that the force of destruction MIGHT allow mutantkind to grow once more, yet you rejected an offer to help solve the same problem from a friendly HUMAN source (Wakanda) that does not pose a threat to all life on the planet. Take your sanctimonious attitude and pack it in, Cryclops... its not selling here or anywhere else in the world. And so what if you choose not to forget? What, you'll stop being heroes and saving the planet from destruction now and again? Because it is your planet too... or don't you care about those mutants you claim are always subject to such persecution? Or was that not forgetting part a subtle threat that somewhere down the line, you really will become the villainous mutants you think everyone thinks "your kind" are? And you believe that calling yourselves "property" is really accurate? So sorry if refusing to acknowledge your self-declared sovereignty equates with slavery, but I guess that makes everyone else in the United States a slave too. But you're mutants, so somehow that makes it more special?? Piss off, whiners.

[Zen-aku]

Thank you sparky for illustrating why i am hating the X-men in this Event.

A bunch of whiny selfish bitches clinging to the victim card.

And yet Wolverine is still proving to be the best of them.

Personally, I think Marvel have seriously lost their way with Logan; by spreading him so thin. They want him to be brutal killer, heartless, determined, lone wolf while ALSO comic headmaster, loves kids, wouldn't hurt a fly. Over-exposure has made him so unlikeable

Yes because characters cant have separate aspects to their characters.

First of all Wolverine is not and has not been presented as a loner for a long ass time, he has grown out of that

second he Is killing People For the kids, so they don't have to and so that the threats wont hurt them, (BTW Wolverine is the only marvel superhero to have a long line of genuine sidekicks so his soft spot for kids isn't anything new) further more I don't See where your saying he is presented as "he would never hurt a fly" that is just a blatant lie. As along time Wolverine fan seeing where the character is to day as opposed to the clarmont days is a treat cause it shows real genuine positive character growth that has managed to stick

[Old Sparky]

Well, of course the X-Fans are gonna see the Avengers as the bad guys. Then again, most of them are zealots who will follow Cyclops without a second thought.

When you combine their "black and white" thinking with an overwhelming need to demonize anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint, you understand how we end up with Teabaggers.

Me? I think there are plenty of good X-Men, but the Avengers have walked into a quagmire. Cyclops has many disciples, and trying to reason with them before the Earth is destroyed is a recipe for insanity.

I think a better word is fanatics. Cyclops has many fanatics. There are mutants that get by in society just fine. There are villains who are mutants who appear to get less disrespect than the X-Men. Maybe its because the X-Men keep running around declaring things about mutants... like they're a race, that they have sovereignty and could blow up whole cities if you don't respect that, that everybody hates them even when there have been clear examples of respect and friendship in the past. Its okay for Cryclops to ignore such examples when it suits his purposes of martyring all mutants in a lame attempt to garner sympathy... which many fans of X-comics will respond to positively and look at anyone who disagrees with Cyclops point of view as mutant-hating fascists.

Hm, it sounds like you just unfairly demonized the X-men and their fans.

I don't know, I thought he did a good job of fairly demonizing them.

The X-men and Avengers are both undeniably super-hero teams, but just because both are good does not mean they can't disagree on the best way to save the world.

Disagreeing is fine. Refusing to compromise or even look for alternatives, however, makes the leader of the X-Men a poor choice for leading... The fact that Magneto is worried about what's going on with the Phoenix actually makes him a better choice to lead... even if he still decided to oppose the Avengers in the long run, Cryclops chose to immediately jump to his mutant persecution crap when any rational person would recognize Captain America's concern about Hope and the Phoenix WERE QUITE RATIONAL. To his credit, Captain America was overly forceful in his approach when he said he wasn't asking for permission, but you can blame both Wolverine and Beast (both of whom have condemned the Phoenix as nothing but an evil monster that threatens all reality). For that matter, Storm can also take some of the blame because when Captain America called in the Avengers to brief them on the situation, he didn't shut mutants out and say "Let's make this decision for them." Storm had every opportunity to voice her concerns on behalf of the mutant community right along with Beast and Wolverine. Instead, she chose to run to the X-Men's side before she even learned what Captain America knew or what his plans were. "Phoenix is coming? Gotta go stand with the X-Men!" Storm should be kicked out of the Avengers and never be allowed to return --not for taking the other side, but just for being such an irresponsible bitch. The rest of the X-Men... I'm less willing to be hard on. Okay, they're following Cryclops' lead. Whatever.

a) actually I wasn't well aware that is what you meant, apologies
b) even IF Jeffries and Rao leave the kids there, acting as guardians, if the kids truly want to leave; the Avengers have no right to stop them. A kid has every right to run away from a babysitter they feel isn't acting in their best interests. This isn't an arguement over when bed-time is; this is stopping MATURE kids (14/15 years old) from making their own choices. Techniqually neither Rao ir Jeffries are actual legal guardians; so again, the Avengers really have no right to stop the kids leaving, if they want to.

Okay, but EVEN IF those kids could be considered mature enough to make decisions for themselves, Captain America has every right to try and prevent them from interfering in the conflict. Duly appointed representative of the United States government... potentially world-ending threat on the horizon... Cryclops and his fanatics running around. Yeah, he has as much right to "ground" them as a fire chief would to restrain a teenager from entering a burning building because its their home because then there would be one more person that firefighters would need to endanger their own lives trying to protect. Or do you believe teenagers have the right to endanger themselves recklessly also?

If you wish to take the analogy this way then...

Utopia is a sovereign nation whose infrastructure has collapsed (quite literally, having seen Magneto's use of buildings in combat) and it's government has fled* after entering into hostilities with it's neighbouring country. Those deemed ultimately responsible for the welfare of the children have abandoned them**, leaving only a handful of local native medical and research staff in a position to care for the children.

These medical staff are approached by representatives of the occupying force and informed that there is a nearby facility where the children's needs can be met and their safety & removal from the conflict can be assured. Already aware of the facility, and left with no other choice, the medical staff take it upon themselves to assume responsibility for the welfare of the children, and to remain with them throughout the conflict. They agree to the plan to take the children to the facility, and they also agree that it is in the best interests of the children to remain there, despite any individual wishes on the part of the children themselves***.

As the infrastructure in Utopia has collapsed, and all representatives of government have fled, any local laws would be suspended and international law would come into effect; meaning that any label or claim to self-determination and adult responsibility the children may have had is also suspended, and the medical staff's assumption of guardians of their welfare would be supported.

So, there you have it - Jeffries and Rao do have a strong case for presently holding legal guardianship over the children, and any complaints over or arguments with the protective custody arrangement should be levelled at them for having made the decision.

*See AvX # 3
**Scott & Emma confirm this to be the case in AvX # 4
***Avengers Academy #29

EDIT - I believe that takes into account all salient points; from who has taken responsibility for the welfare of the kids, where the legal implications lay, and taking the situation as being one where Utopia is a recognised sovereign nation.

While I still disagree with the basic premise that Utopia should be recognized as a sovereign nation, I applaud your effort to make it clear that even if they were, then no wrong was done in taking the X-kids into protective custody. Brilliant example. I think I like you, Lady A. Will you go to the prom with me?

If you don't think that this event is trying to make the X-Men look evil and the Avengers look good, you're a moron or in denial.

I hope (in vain, I know) that they trying to make the X-Men look as evil as possible so that when the Phoenix does show up, they can just kill off 90% of what's left of the mutant population (saving Squirrel Girl and a small handful of others that generally avoid X-titles and thus maintain their heroic integrity). Honestly, the more arguments I hear about how wrong the Avengers are, the more inclined I am to favor the whole genocide thing just to bring an end to all this mutant persecution nonsense.

[StoneGold]

This is just Civil War ver 2.0

No one is really the bad guy.

Although this time, Marvel seems to have the "No, you're side is wrong!" split a little better this time. Granted, it's more by both sides having enough wrong, as opposed to both sides having enough right, but Avengers and X-Men fans can take sides fairly easily on this one without feeling too guilty.

[Zen-aku]

If you don't think that this event is trying to make the X-Men look evil and the Avengers look good, you're a moron or in denial.

The X-men aren't being made to look Evil Just Stupid in selfish, which is inline with where they have been going for a long time, Their is a reason why half their members up and left.

[StoneGold]

I look at this from another perspective.The courts can take children and teens away from their parents or guardian if it is determanned they are being abused or neglected or in a dangerous situation.The children have no say.They may end up in a tempoary shelter until they can be put in foster care.Thousands of youths end up in foster care every year.I was a temperary Ward of the Court from the age of 12 until I was 19,so I know from personal experience.

More to the point, the kids were pretty specifically abandoned by the higher up X-Men. Now, two part reason for that. One, as Brevoort's been saying, the X-Men know the Avengers aren't bad guys, Phoenix is a wedge issue, but that doesn't mean Cap is calling out the Sentinels. Two, it ties up Avengers resources. Slowed down Cap from getting to the Savage Land, ties up Tigra and Hercules, potentially others.

[The Black Guardian]

So, reading the discussion on here...I'm picking up that many people think that the Avengers are the bad guys in AvX....but I don't understand how people have come to this conclusion. Trying to take a person off the planet who is more than likely signalling a destructive fire bird...that seems like a wise course of action. What am I missing?

She's not signalling the destructive firebird. The firebird is coming (already here) regardless. Hope is the only hope to control it. Sure, she may fail, but she might not, either. Without Hope, there really is no hope.

The Avengers just see things differently.