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  1. #5851
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the idea is that you couln't let it go unless you were able to control it in the first place.

    And again, I'll say everything pointed to her being unable to do that on the moon. You have edtiors stating she couldn't. You have writers stating she couldn't. You have the mystic scrying pool telling her she needed additional training to control it... training she didn't have when she failed to control it on the moon, but which she did have when she suceeded. And as I said, you have Hope herself:


    Days after she did say she wanted it... but that doesn't mean she could actualy control it if she did.
    But Scott wasn't in control and he did the whole letting go thing. Anyway, my issue was simply it wasn't shown all that well in the actual event. It didn't help that the training she needed didn't even get completed.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as why the Avengers couldn't play support to the X-Men in this event? To quote Gillen:

    "However it's also worth stressing -- and I suspect this is the thing which most pro-Scott advocates are skirting over -- is that if we did everything like Scott said, the Earth would have been destroyed. Hope wasn't ready. She was ready eventually but that required time."

    "The Avengers' resistance was all part of the universal plan."
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=41813

    They wanted a story where the teams would fight obviously, but they also wanted to create a context where both teams were right and both teams were wrong from a CERTAIN perspective. And this story achieved that. Both were right about some things... both were wrong about some things. And in the end the Avengers and X-Men came together to save the world from destruction.
    I'm failing to see why wanting both teams to fight and then eventually come together without either being completely right or wrong means that the Avengers couldn't have played support. All the other events have no problem with having them play a secondary role to the main stars. And that comment is one of those that I was talking about before. It makes no sense in context when we had the Phoenix outright tell everyone it didn't come for destruction but to save mutantkind. Not to mention the fact that the reason Hope wasn't allowed to get ready was because of the Avenger's invading.

    The story really didn't achieve that. The event pretty much painted Scott as completely wrong and a villain, while completely ignoring the Avenger's own errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And Scott trying to seal the San Andreas fault will likely cause the destruction of the West Coast of the US. If I were Bobby I'd be ticked off at that too. Hopefully that's one of the things Hope corrected at the end of the story. It's like when Colossus thought whales might enjoy walking on land with crab legs. He may have MEANT well, but an ignorant well meaning god can be just as dangerous if not moreso than an "evil" one.
    Really? I'm not so sure about that, given the danger the San Andreas fault is suppose to pose if there was ever an earthquake. But even presuming so, Scott clearly wasn't trying to cause a problem. He was attempting to fix the problem, even if he was being misguided in his attempt. How exactly does that equal this great evil? If that was what Bobby had an issue with, then he didn't even try to point out any error. The point is that they were treating him not as someone who simply made some well intended mistakes, they acted as if he was purposely trying to destroy them all. Even Xavier, who by all logic should have been fully aware that things weren't like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    When did Scott ever tell Cap if he came ot him they could have worked it out or even words to the effect?
    During the melee in the second issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    The Avengers wantented to save the world from being the next planet destroyed buy the PF and were acting to do that. They had gotten as far as figuring out Hope was the key and went to toake her into protective custody. Scot responds with get off my island and blasts the guy who came.
    Except their reasoning was flawed. If the Phoenix had truly been intending on wiping out the world, then Hope didn't matter. It was shown fully capable of wiping out a planet without a host. Hope was only an issue if the Phoenix didn't intend to wipe out the planet but act like it always did. And Scott blasted him off because he demanded Hope and because he was told what would happen if the Avengers got Hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    The X-men or I should say Scott had to plan beyond trying to get Hope ready for the PF. Then he was passing the buck to her and letting her do what she could to save the day. The X-men could not take the lead because they were not doing anything. Not communicating with anyone or preparing anyone for what was coming. Scott seemed to expect the entire superhero community to sit back and see what happened with a gieant cosic force landed on earth and hope for the best. To top it off he expected this to happen not because he said so or that he had educated anyone on what he believed to be the outcome, he seemed to just want them to ignore it.
    They didn't communicate or prepare with anyone because as far as we saw, they had no idea what was going on with the Phoenix in space. And it wasn't as if there was any other options. If Scott had been wrong, then there was nothing any of them could have done anyhow. Both sides admitted this.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    If the X-men wanted to take the lead that would involve working with and not around the others.
    We've seen them do that just fine. Heck, they did so the storyline right before the event.

  2. #5852
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    But Scott wasn't in control and he did the whole letting go thing. Anyway, my issue was simply it wasn't shown all that well in the actual event. It didn't help that the training she needed didn't even get completed.

    I'm failing to see why wanting both teams to fight and then eventually come together without either being completely right or wrong means that the Avengers couldn't have played support. All the other events have no problem with having them play a secondary role to the main stars. And that comment is one of those that I was talking about before. It makes no sense in context when we had the Phoenix outright tell everyone it didn't come for destruction but to save mutantkind. Not to mention the fact that the reason Hope wasn't allowed to get ready was because of the Avenger's invading.

    The story really didn't achieve that. The event pretty much painted Scott as completely wrong and a villain, while completely ignoring the Avenger's own errors.

    Really? I'm not so sure about that, given the danger the San Andreas fault is suppose to pose if there was ever an earthquake. But even presuming so, Scott clearly wasn't trying to cause a problem. He was attempting to fix the problem, even if he was being misguided in his attempt. How exactly does that equal this great evil? If that was what Bobby had an issue with, then he didn't even try to point out any error. The point is that they were treating him not as someone who simply made some well intended mistakes, they acted as if he was purposely trying to destroy them all. Even Xavier, who by all logic should have been fully aware that things weren't like that.

    During the melee in the second issue.

    Except their reasoning was flawed. If the Phoenix had truly been intending on wiping out the world, then Hope didn't matter. It was shown fully capable of wiping out a planet without a host. Hope was only an issue if the Phoenix didn't intend to wipe out the planet but act like it always did. And Scott blasted him off because he demanded Hope and because he was told what would happen if the Avengers got Hope.

    They didn't communicate or prepare with anyone because as far as we saw, they had no idea what was going on with the Phoenix in space. And it wasn't as if there was any other options. If Scott had been wrong, then there was nothing any of them could have done anyhow. Both sides admitted this.

    We've seen them do that just fine. Heck, they did so the storyline right before the event.
    Scott blasted cap because he was a dick and wanted to belesft alone based on what he said and did. He did not even try to discuss the impact or role of Hope in the process. If he did they would not have almost destroyed Utopia and Atlantis in a stupid fight he started.
    Rulk of all people prevented the destruction of both places.

    Yeah the Xmen have taken the lead as have all teams but they did not in this issue because they fell back on the outsiders role instead of a team with multiple connections in the community. In this story which was the only one being discussed they did not work with others only themselves.

    So you say Cap's team used flawed reasoning and Scott did not know the whole story. But it was wrong for Cap to act on his info and Scott was right to sit by and do nothing outside of starting a fight? That does not makes sense if danger is coming you try to avoid/prevent it. That is why they wear the silly uniforms. That is why the FF always try and stop Galatacus and others, the Avengers with Kang, and the X-men with Apocalypse and various combinations with Thanos, the Beyonder etc.

    The training Hope received fron If and spidey was finished or at least enough. I don't think anyone was ever sure when it would be complete. Scott helped her get ready and they finished it or did enough so she could handle it.

    I know you made other points but I am already tired of typing.

  3. #5853
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    But Scott wasn't in control and he did the whole letting go thing. Anyway, my issue was simply it wasn't shown all that well in the actual event. It didn't help that the training she needed didn't even get completed.

    I'm failing to see why wanting both teams to fight and then eventually come together without either being completely right or wrong means that the Avengers couldn't have played support. All the other events have no problem with having them play a secondary role to the main stars. And that comment is one of those that I was talking about before. It makes no sense in context when we had the Phoenix outright tell everyone it didn't come for destruction but to save mutantkind. Not to mention the fact that the reason Hope wasn't allowed to get ready was because of the Avenger's invading.

    The story really didn't achieve that. The event pretty much painted Scott as completely wrong and a villain, while completely ignoring the Avenger's own errors.

    Really? I'm not so sure about that, given the danger the San Andreas fault is suppose to pose if there was ever an earthquake. But even presuming so, Scott clearly wasn't trying to cause a problem. He was attempting to fix the problem, even if he was being misguided in his attempt. How exactly does that equal this great evil? If that was what Bobby had an issue with, then he didn't even try to point out any error. The point is that they were treating him not as someone who simply made some well intended mistakes, they acted as if he was purposely trying to destroy them all. Even Xavier, who by all logic should have been fully aware that things weren't like that.


    As far as the Avengers playing support... you can argue they DID play support. Just not to Scott. They played support to Hope. Essentially their role in the story was to prepare her to save the day, and for the second and third act that's essentially what they did.

    And I don't think the point was that Hope wasn't allowed to get ready because of the Avengers... the point was she needed something specific to get ready (which the Avengers provided), and she needed the time to get it, which again the Avengers provided. Thunderer didn't leave Kun Lun until after the Phoenix had already come for Hope... the Avengers were able to stop it from taking her before she got the training she needed.

    Again, like Gillen said: "The Avengers' resistance was all part of the universal plan. Scott taking the Phoenix for as long as he did allowed Hope to be ready. It all worked out."

    And the San Andreas fault poses a GREATER danger if it's sealed when an earth quake occurs. Faults are there for a reason. That's why what he was doing was so stupid. It's just like Colossus sticking crab legs on whales and sticking them on land. They may mean well... but it's still really stupid. And in Scotts case very very dangerous. It shows that an ignorant person with the power of a god can be just as dangerous if not moreso than a super villain with it. Say what you want about Doom, but he at least knows what the hell he's doing.

  4. #5854
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    The writers and editors were clearly the bad guys.

  5. #5855
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    The writers and editors were clearly the bad guys.
    as were the people who paid for this tripe.

  6. #5856
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    as were the people who paid for this tripe.
    Good guy right here!

  7. #5857
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    Scott blasted cap because he was a dick and wanted to belesft alone based on what he said and did. He did not even try to discuss the impact or role of Hope in the process. If he did they would not have almost destroyed Utopia and Atlantis in a stupid fight he started.
    Rulk of all people prevented the destruction of both places.
    Scott blasted Cap because he demanded Hope and said he wasn't gonna take her regardless of what they wanted, and because Scott was specifically told that the Avengers couldn't be allowed to have Hope. Being told all that didn't leave much room for discussion. And who exactly was it that brought an entire army? A fight between the two of them clearly wouldn't have been as devastating if it had stay between the two of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    Yeah the Xmen have taken the lead as have all teams but they did not in this issue because they fell back on the outsiders role instead of a team with multiple connections in the community. In this story which was the only one being discussed they did not work with others only themselves.
    Aside from the X-men having plenty of the same connection to the wider superhero community as the Avengers do, when exactly did any such connections play a apart in the event?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    So you say Cap's team used flawed reasoning and Scott did not know the whole story. But it was wrong for Cap to act on his info and Scott was right to sit by and do nothing outside of starting a fight? That does not makes sense if danger is coming you try to avoid/prevent it. That is why they wear the silly uniforms. That is why the FF always try and stop Galatacus and others, the Avengers with Kang, and the X-men with Apocalypse and various combinations with Thanos, the Beyonder etc.
    Acting on what he knew wasn't what was wrong, it's how he did it. Cap sent off Thor and the other powerhouses on a suicide mission before he even knew getting Hope wouldn't work, and despite both Tony and Beast showing the ability to create an anti-Phoenix weapon, he didn't have either of them working upon such a thing til it after said Hope situation. Then there's the whole paranoia after the P5 were fixing the world, despite there not being any reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    The training Hope received fron If and spidey was finished or at least enough. I don't think anyone was ever sure when it would be complete. Scott helped her get ready and they finished it or did enough so she could handle it.
    Her conversation with Spiderman contributed to nothing in the end and her Iron Fist training wasn't complete, as she never got to the test.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as the Avengers playing support... you can argue they DID play support. Just not to Scott. They played support to Hope. Essentially their role in the story was to prepare her to save the day, and for the second and third act that's essentially what they did.
    How did they play support to Hope? She barely had a role til the end and that was pretty much as a DEM. The Avengers were center stage with the P5, and since the P5 were declared the villains...

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And I don't think the point was that Hope wasn't allowed to get ready because of the Avengers... the point was she needed something specific to get ready (which the Avengers provided), and she needed the time to get it, which again the Avengers provided. Thunderer didn't leave Kun Lun until after the Phoenix had already come for Hope... the Avengers were able to stop it from taking her before she got the training she needed.

    Again, like Gillen said: "The Avengers' resistance was all part of the universal plan. Scott taking the Phoenix for as long as he did allowed Hope to be ready. It all worked out."
    No, the point is that things were retconed afterwards by the writers to have it being only a single method, despite the actual event showing other options. And for it to work, we got to disregard what we saw and pretty much assume that everything was a huge lucky coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And the San Andreas fault poses a GREATER danger if it's sealed when an earth quake occurs. Faults are there for a reason. That's why what he was doing was so stupid. It's just like Colossus sticking crab legs on whales and sticking them on land. They may mean well... but it's still really stupid. And in Scotts case very very dangerous. It shows that an ignorant person with the power of a god can be just as dangerous if not moreso than a super villain with it. Say what you want about Doom, but he at least knows what the hell he's doing.
    That's not how earthquakes work. Earthquakes are caused because of the movement of the faults. Sealing the fault should eliminate anything to cause the earthquake. So his actions were stupid or that dangerous, except possibly in the long run of the planet, since it would prevent the movement of the plates. But that consequence wouldn't happen for some million years.

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    Gluing a tectonic plate on one side to another isn't going to keep it from moving, either the fissure will open up again in short order or the plate will start to crack somewhere else. I think that particular scene summed up pretty well why the Phoenix Five were doomed to failure from the start. Yes, earthquakes suck and we all wish they would just go away, but anything that would get rid of them inevitably causes more problems than it solves. Misguided idealism is no substitute for sound scientific reasoning, and trying to solve problems you don't understand with quick and easy fixes is probably the greatest pitfall of coming upon too much power. Everyone starts with good intentions, but to effect real change you need a well thought out plan and the patience to see it through, you can't just try to patch everything up and expect it to turn out well, or try and tear everything up in a fit of panic and rage if it doesn't work out like you planned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Gluing a tectonic plate on one side to another isn't going to keep it from moving, either the fissure will open up again in short order or the plate will start to crack somewhere else. I think that particular scene summed up pretty well why the Phoenix Five were doomed to failure from the start. Yes, earthquakes suck and we all wish they would just go away, but anything that would get rid of them inevitably causes more problems than it solves. Misguided idealism is no substitute for sound scientific reasoning, and trying to solve problems you don't understand with quick and easy fixes is probably the greatest pitfall of coming upon too much power. Everyone starts with good intentions, but to effect real change you need a well thought out plan and the patience to see it through, you can't just try to patch everything up and expect it to turn out well, or try and tear everything up in a fit of panic and rage if it doesn't work out like you planned.
    lol you literally could apply that reasoning with how the Avengers reacted to the Phoenix....That's Hilarious

  10. #5860
    Senior Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    Ordinary villains knew that if one ground up mutants, one could convert them into a super-power inducing serum. If only the heroes had realized they could have incorporated pieces of the dead Charles Xavier's brain into themselves and augmented their telepathy.

  11. #5861
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SayOcean View Post
    lol you literally could apply that reasoning with how the Avengers reacted to the Phoenix....That's Hilarious
    Difference being, had the Avengers not gotten involved the earth would be destroyed. So that actually worked out okay.

    Gillen: "Scott was right in many ways. However it's also worth stressing -- and I suspect this is the thing which most pro-Scott advocates are skirting over -- is that if we did everything like Scott said, the Earth would have been destroyed."
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=41813

    Breevort: " Tony is definitely responsible for splitting the Phoenix and inadvertently creating the Phoenix Five. But that's certainly preferable to the Earth and humanity being burned away by cosmic fire."
    http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort...61731811900689

    Tectonic plates work just fine without Cyclops "fixing" them.

  12. #5862
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Difference being, had the Avengers not gotten involved the earth would be destroyed. So that actually worked out okay.

    Gillen: "Scott was right in many ways. However it's also worth stressing -- and I suspect this is the thing which most pro-Scott advocates are skirting over -- is that if we did everything like Scott said, the Earth would have been destroyed."
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=41813

    Breevort: " Tony is definitely responsible for splitting the Phoenix and inadvertently creating the Phoenix Five. But that's certainly preferable to the Earth and humanity being burned away by cosmic fire."
    http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort...61731811900689

    Tectonic plates work just fine without Cyclops "fixing" them.
    Trouble is these are the people in charge of the stories, so they could write anyway they wanted and they wanted the Avengers to solidify there spot as The top franchise. Poor Scott never had a chance. Him and the X-men are yesterdays news and now all of marvel's top creative energy is being used for the Avengers.

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    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Trouble is these are the people in charge of the stories, so they could write anyway they wanted and they wanted the Avengers to solidify there spot as The top franchise. Poor Scott never had a chance. Him and the X-men are yesterdays news and now all of marvel's top creative energy is being used for the Avengers.
    They had to write the story that way though.

    If the Avengers were completely unecessary in the event, they wouldn't have bothered writing a story with both teams teaming up in the first place.

  14. #5864
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They had to write the story that way though.

    If the Avengers were completely unecessary in the event, they wouldn't have bothered writing a story with both teams teaming up in the first place.
    Would that have been so bad? The X-men have dealt with the Pheonix solo before. They might have been able to do it this time without putting Scott's character into the trash.

  15. #5865
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Would that have been so bad? The X-men have dealt with the Pheonix solo before. They might have been able to do it this time without putting Scott's character into the trash.
    It wouldn't have necessarily been bad if it was a solo X-Men story.

    But I think because the decimation really began with House of M, which was a joint X-Men/Avenger story they felt it was appropriate to end it with one as well.

    Plus, this story was essentially and end point to an entire era of marvel comics that arguably started with Bendis Disassembled. So I think they believed it was fitting. And it also helps lead into Uncanny Avengers.

    As far as putting Scotts characters in the trash... right now he's essentially the patron saint of the X board. So he seems good.

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