The Bad Guys of AvX?

[ShadowDemon]

It was in this story.

Which is bad writing that disrespects 616 historical fact.

You disagree? Feel it goes against the history? Fine. Dislike that aspect of the story.

Since that miswriting directly leads into a whole raft of other bad bits of writing it's hard to take it in isolation.

Doesn't mean that the characters are lying or the comic told another story when it didn't. But this story and the creator stated the Phoenix would have destroyed the world if the heroes did everything Scott wanted.

I don't recall doing that. The story shows the Avengers (particularly Cap and Iron Tyrant) made an unwarranted assumption and set out with the intention of "stopping" the PF "by any means necessary".

[ShadowDemon]

it had to have been this badly written or the mini couldn't have gone forward. Cap needed to act like a bully -as She-Hulk would do later to force Rogue into action- and Scott had to act like a fool.

Sort of like the way the Warriors were jobbed to Nitro in order to facilitate kicking off Civil War.

[RDMacQ]

All that shows is that the writers (again) didn't know what they're doing. Rachel Summers/Grey is the One True Phoenix by the PF's own proclamation (Excalibur Vol 1). She could (and has) utilized the Phoenix full force w/o going "Dark Phoenix".

But that would be admitting that the X-Men didn't start with Morrison's frakked up hatchet job on characters and conrinuity, wouldn't it...?

Which is fine if you dislike it. No one is saying you have to like what went on. Just that you don't get to say what happened on the page isn't what "really" happened.

Which is bad writing that disrespects 616 historical fact.

Which unfortunately changes with practically every time the Phoenix shows up.

Given the convoluted history of the Phoenix- even in Excalibur- I can understand wanting to follow the most commonly known story. I like Excalibur, but I know that the stuff in that series isn't the easiest to follow.

Since that miswriting directly leads into a whole raft of other bad bits of writing it's hard to take it in isolation.

No it's not. It's all part of the same story.

I don't recall doing that. The story shows the Avengers (particularly Cap and Iron Tyrant) made an unwarranted assumption and set out with the intention of "stopping" the PF "by any means necessary".

I didn't say you said it. But the creators have verified that the Avengers were correct in wanting to stop the Phoenix, as Hope was not ready and if they did do everything Cyclops said, the world would have been destroyed.

[Mark_S]

But you had to go to the interview to find that out. ShadowDemon has a point, when you have to listen to interviews and when the writers themselves disregard any history that they feel like yet at the same time sell the story based on the characters history then why pay for a story that will itself probably be contradicted in a few years? Enough time seems to have passed that Excalibur volume 1 meant nothing to the creators so probably AvX will mean nothing to them in time as well. Lack of care or attention to what they or their colleagues create seems wrong to me.
In a way I don't mind this lazy sort of writing. If that is all that they are capable and it sells then ok. It is hard and at times very hard to match history so I can understand them taking the easy way out so long as it sells well. But if they are going to create cosmic level entities it would be nice if they stuck to at least one version of them. The main question of AvX -Why did the PF come to Earth now when Hope wasn't ready- certainly could have helped the story.

[RDMacQ]

But you had to go to the interview to find that out.

No, you don't have to go to an interview to find that out.

The reason people are going to interviews is because people are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge a sequence of events in the story, or are twisting the narrative to the point of outright lying about what went on to continue to paint the Avengers as genocidal fascists and white knight the X-Men in all respects. Having the writer confirm that the specific intent of the story is done not to clarify what went on, but to show that there is no wiggle room for "interpretation."

[Mark_S]

No, you don't have to go to an interview to find that out.

The reason people are going to interviews is because people are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge a sequence of events in the story, or are twisting the narrative to the point of outright lying about what went on to continue to paint the Avengers as genocidal fascists and white knight the X-Men in all respects. Having the writer confirm that the specific intent of the story is done not to clarify what went on, but to show that there is no wiggle room for "interpretation."

But as noted the story contradicts another story. Is Rachel the one host or is Hope? Why the contradiction? I don't think that the Avengers are genocidal fascists -well at least not genocidal anyway- but I think that they over reacted and went to the island spoiling for some sort of fight and Scott was only too happy to give them one. The intent of the story in my opinion was just to get the fights going. There was no real exploration of the PF's motives and such an exploration in the issues probably would have done far better to settle any question of who was a bad guy than an interview.

[celticguy]

What about the people who fought side by side with Scott? Couldn't they have given them the benefit of the doubt? They are saying in effect 'We don't trust you with the safety of the planet even though you've saved it before.' This is Tony and Cap, two current members of the Illuminati. Scott could point out that it was the Illuminati who put the world in jeopardy by shooting the Hulk into space, how does he know that Hope's not just the latest version of the Hulk? He could point out that the Illuminati aggravated the skrull situation by going to the skrull homeworld and getting themselves captured, thus putting the world in more danger from the skrulls than before since they learned from the captives. What if their actions make things worse? He's dealt with the Phoenix before, what makes them right and him wrong? Cap also represents the US government, hardly a mutant friendly group. There is a list of reasons for Scott not to trust Cap and the Avengers and an even longer list for the Avengers not trust each other.
It doesn't make sense to me for these people to trust each other or even like each other after all that they've done too each other. Scott in my opinion was showing a perfectly reasonable attitude toward a group of people who've nearly all fought against each other and betrayed each other, why should he trust them?

So why do they what is the one compelling reason that the avenger or the x men for that matter trust one another? They have had each others backs over and over again. Scott is operating on blind faith on little more than a guy instinct. Cap has consulted 3 of the top brains in the world including the top X-brain and is opertating on the best info he has available to him. God knows Scott is not sharing any. You can argue that Cap does not have all the facts or is wrong and that is fine but he is going with what he has in front of him. Scott does not even bother to consult the only person he knows who has bonded with the PF in the past. Just PT for Hope and cross your fingers.

Cap was not part of shooting Hulk into space so why that factors into anything is beyond me. It was not Tony standing there it was Cap. It was Cap he could either trust or not trust no one else factors into it. Cap represents Cap first and formost he has broken with the government over issues more than once.

[Mark_S]

So why do they what is the one compelling reason that the avenger or the x men for that matter trust one another? They have had each others backs over and over again. Scott is operating on blind faith on little more than a guy instinct. Cap has consulted 3 of the top brains in the world including the top X-brain and is opertating on the best info he has available to him. God knows Scott is not sharing any. You can argue that Cap does not have all the facts or is wrong and that is fine but he is going with what he has in front of him. Scott does not even bother to consult the only person he knows who has boned with the PF in the past. Just PT for HJope and cross your fingers.

Cap was not part of shooting Hulk into space so why that factors into anything is beyond me. It was not Tony standing there it was Cap. It was Cap he could either trust or not trust no one else factors into it. Cap represents Cap first and formost he has broken with the government over issues more than once.

True. Scott was going on faith. In his mind I don't think it mattered much if the world was destroyed since he probably felt what was his race was heading for extinction anyway. On the other hand since the writer only mentioned in an interview that the PF would have destroyed Earth if the Avengers hadn't acted and since no one knew why the PF was heading toward Earth at that moment and since Scott had knew that the PF was handled well by Rachel... There are a lot of reasons for Scott to have faith in his instincts and not in Cap. Yes they've had each others backs over and over again, but I've listed already just some of the instances where people have turned on people. All you need is the right reason, or a reason that sounds right. Cap never intended to give Scott a choice, it was his way or the highway. He showed up with a hidden army ready to fight. Guy shows up at your door with a hidden army that is not a trusting move. Again I'll note that when Tony showed up with an army Cap didn't trust him.
In my opinion this is all part of the lazy writing structure that marvel tends to follow. They force the story and let the fans fight it out. I'm sure they enjoy these threads more than anyone.

[celticguy]

True. Scott was going on faith. In his mind I don't think it mattered much if the world was destroyed since he probably felt what was his race was heading for extinction anyway. On the other hand since the writer only mentioned in an interview that the PF would have destroyed Earth if the Avengers hadn't acted and since no one knew why the PF was heading toward Earth at that moment and since Scott had knew that the PF was handled well by Rachel... There are a lot of reasons for Scott to have faith in his instincts and not in Cap. Yes they've had each others backs over and over again, but I've listed already just some of the instances where people have turned on people. All you need is the right reason, or a reason that sounds right. Cap never intended to give Scott a choice, it was his way or the highway. He showed up with a hidden army ready to fight. Guy shows up at your door with a hidden army that is not a trusting move. Again I'll note that when Tony showed up with an army Cap didn't trust him.
In my opinion this is all part of the lazy writing structure that marvel tends to follow. They force the story and let the fans fight it out. I'm sure they enjoy these threads more than anyone.

and I go back to Tony and Cap did meet and try to talk things out. Ok it did not work and CW played out like it did but they at least gave it a chance. Scott was not even willing to do that. Instead he put his whole island and Atlantis at risk in a stupid fight that never needed to happen or at the very least should have happened after all other avenues were tried.

[mikekerrIII]

and I go back to Tony and Cap did meet and try to talk things out. Ok it did not work and CW played out like it did but they at least gave it a chance. Scott was not even willing to do that. Instead he put his whole island and Atlantis at risk in a stupid fight that never needed to happen or at the very least should have happened after all other avenues were tried.

When Cyke talked to Cap, Cap blew him off and told him they would talk when it was over, And that would have been too late for the mutants. When they were on the moon cap didn't even pretend to listen. Cap was offering no more than to allow Cyke to do something that Cyke beloved was bad for the mutants, and offered no comprise at all. The conversation ended When Cap said he would not talk about the subject at hand, he was then told to leave, Refused and then was knocked on his ass

If Ca had spent a few minutes talking to Cyke before he blew him off then there would not have been a fight either, Instead Cap went with the scumbag with a personal grudge that lied to him

[Mark_S]

and I go back to Tony and Cap did meet and try to talk things out. Ok it did not work and CW played out like it did but they at least gave it a chance. Scott was not even willing to do that. Instead he put his whole island and Atlantis at risk in a stupid fight that never needed to happen or at the very least should have happened after all other avenues were tried.

Tony and Cap only agreed to meet after Clor killed someone. Death -even the death of a throw away character- has a way of concentrating peoples attention. But even after that Tony sent Clor out again and no one on his side seemed to mind that much. I agree that Scott was in the wrong in being so passive about the Pheonix coming. I think a part of that may be that after the Earth and the Universe itself is in peril so many times even the most passionate hero becomes a bit used to it. For Scott it might have like
Cap: "The Earth is in danger!"
Scott: "What's the problem this week?"
Even accounting for the loose grasp of marvel history that the writers seem to have Scott and crew have saved the planet a few times as has Cap and crew. Scott might not have felt the same urgency and really who can blame him? After all was the PF as dangerous as Galactus, the skrulls, the kree, Ego the Living Planet, the dire wraiths who tried to eat the sun, Thanos... Well you get the idea.

Bottom line Scott I think was willing to gamble because he and others have gambled so many times in the past and won. Also I think Cap might have done better to send in Beast and just keep the Avengers and the Helicarieer on the mainland. That would have been close enough to act but not close enough to trigger the alarms.

[Ebon Phantom]

I don't agree that Wanda and Hope were necessarily shown immute to any attach she could have thrown at them. If she dropped a bus on them, they could both in theory die. Again, we can play arm chair quarterback and say if they had done things differently maybe the end result would be different... we'll never know. The one thing we do know will work is what the Avengers actually did. And we know it would work because it work. It achieved the stated objectives. Saying anything beyond that is essentially fan fiction. I'm sure down the line they'll do some What Ifs (where we'll see things done differently, and odds are the world will end up ending), but until then there's really nothing more we can say on that matter.

I'm not sure how this is "armchair quarterbacking". It's canonical that Wanda's power could harm the Phoenix, that Hope could OHKO a similarly powered Scott and take him out for an extended period of time, and that the two of them easily handled the fully powered Dark Phoenix without being injured. Arguing that Emma could magically take them out with a bus makes no sense given all we were shown. And I'm not denying that what they planned didn't work. The entire point is that what was planned was solely having Wanda and Hope counter the Phoenix. There was nothing else implying or suggesting that they needed the Avengers to fight them beforehand or get the Phoenix in a single host for things to work. That along with the ineffectiveness shown pretty much would suggest that had nothing to do with Tony's actual plan. All he mentioned was using the two, and that was what was shown working. Absolutely no reason to presume there was more to the plan then that.

And it is shown that some people support Scott. But unless the people at that particular rally represent the majority of earths population, it doesn't necessarily retcon where both Bendis and Gillen have stated that Scott and mutants are at a low in terms of acceptance. That is what is stated in actual books. And showing a pro-mutant rally doesn't retcon that. It just shows that SOME support them. You can have the majority of the population be against Cyclops for trying to destroy the earth, and still show him having some support. It's no different than there being some pro-Hulk supports in WWH, even though I suspect a good portion of the population were likely against Hulk destroying the city.

Except I didn't just use the pro-mutant rally as the sole proof. I pointed out we haven't seen any real examples of mass hatred, but in fact the opposite. After all, surely a majority against mutants wouldn't need to be mind controlled to act against them, right? So far, it's been nothing like previous eras, where the X-men showing up to help would be met with thrown bottles and insults. Or where we would see the populace actively protesting them.

And if Cyclops plan didn't work, both races would be doomed.

Again, I think a solution where there was a chance of the entire planet being destroyed if it went wrong would have been something everyone would avoid.

Plus, there was the fact that the writers did point out that Cyclops was wrong and Hope wasn't ready and she WOULD HAVE destroyed the world if she bonded when Cyclops WANTED her to. But I guess the facts kind of get in the way of your argument.

They would have been doomed any way had Scott been wrong. The only way either side would have had a chance was by Scott being right about the Phoenix coming for Hope, otherwise the Earth had no chance stopping the Phoenix from burning it to cinder.

The whole problem with that is that the whole event suggest otherwise, what with the Phoenix history and the Phoenix outright saying otherwise, the P5 holding out pretty well for some time and actually fixing the world without any training themselves, and the whole situation with Sinister.

Exactly. Avengers were right. Cyclops was wrong. Had things happened as Cyclops originally wanted (they just let Hope get possessed as soon as the Phoenix showed up) the PF would've destroyed the world. Hope even said it.

And the Phoenix itself stated otherwise. Besides, the Phoenix didn't need a host to destroy the world, meaning it wouldn't have mattered if that had been it's true goal.

In the End it amounted to Playing "Russian Roulette" with Every Living Thing on the Earth. I understand that Summers wanted to restart the mutant gene (He had the Cure in Children's Crusade with Scarlet Witch, but said NO cause he let his emotions Cloud is logical judgement, way to go Summers), but was WAY Over the Top to take the Greatest risk to the planet their can be, Total life Destruction!

He should have worked with Captain America and Meet the Phoenix in space, it would have at least been better then meeting it on the Earth at least. I mean the 616 Universe has Space Ships that can easy travel the Planets like we travel in Cars, it was really not that hard to consider that you would think.

Not really. Had Scott been wrong and the Phoenix wanted to destroy the world, giving up Hope wouldn't have solved anything. The Phoenix clearly didn't need a host to wipe out the world. The Avenger's argument only works if Scott was right, and then it's only an argument about control. And why does Scott have to be the one to work with Cap? Why couldn't Cap have worked with Scott?

From issue 1

Cap: We need to take Hope into protective custody
Cyke : Because...
Cap: The Phoenix Force is headed to Earth and all our experts feel its headed towards her.

later Cap says "There's a destructive force headed to Earth and we need to find a way to stop it"

I don't have a scanner so I cant scan the exchange, but I suggest you re-read the issue. Cap absolutely mentions the Phoenix heading to Earth and Destruction.

My mistake, though it doesn't change the overall issue.

In this instance I think the Avengers lack of history actually worked in everyone's favor.

To Scott, Phoenix was something that could be tamed and live in their house. It was essentially that simple with Rachel, thus he made the mistake in thinking it would be that simple with Hope. Even Captain Britian, who had the Phoenix living in his lighthouse for years, was shocked to see how the Phoenix was acting. It wasn't, thus when Phoenix came Hope and the X-Men simply weren't ready for it. As Gillen said, had Scott gotten his way the earth would be destroyed.

The Avengers on the other hand took Phoenix as a serious threat. And because they did, they went out and tried everything they could think of to address the issue. And that's how we ended up with the Phoenix buster, which saved the earth when Phoenix came for Hope on the moon, and the Kun Lun training, which got Hope ready to actually control the Phoenix afterwards.

And therein lies the whole problem, the author basically claiming something that was the complete opposite of what was shown. For that argument to work, we would not only have to presume that the Phoenix was a liar (which makes no sense) and somehow felt the need to play some sort of drawn out game fixing the world, but completely ignore the fact that it obviously was shown not requiring a host to destroy a world at the beginning of the event. That's all on top of ignoring it's history and every single other host that it has had. The fact that they never bothered to explain why it was acting the way it was in the beginning just makes things worst.

[XPac]

And therein lies the whole problem, the author basically claiming something that was the complete opposite of what was shown. For that argument to work, we would not only have to presume that the Phoenix was a liar (which makes no sense) and somehow felt the need to play some sort of drawn out game fixing the world, but completely ignore the fact that it obviously was shown not requiring a host to destroy a world at the beginning of the event. That's all on top of ignoring it's history and every single other host that it has had. The fact that they never bothered to explain why it was acting the way it was in the beginning just makes things worst.

I don't think what Gillen said is the complete opposite of what was shown at all.

When Hope came for Phoenix, she flat out stated she couldn't control it. And after the fact she said the exact same thing. And we're told in Kun Lun that she needed the training there with Spider-Man. The character states she couldn't control it at the time, the editor states she couldn't, and at least one of the writers flat out says it. Overally, I think they're all on the same page in the matter.

Overall it was pretty simple. Hope couldn't control it at the time, and needed the Avengers help. As much as some pro-Scott guys wish this was a story where the Avengers were completely unecessary and 100% wrong, I think anyone can objectively understand why marvel wouldn't frame the story that way. As with most team ups, both sides were needed. And that's what Scott got wrong. That's not to say he was completely wrong (or that Cap was completely right), but in regards to thinking that they could deal with this HIS way without assistance from the Avengers side, he was wrong.

[XPac]

Would not have been needed if they'd brought in the One True Phoenix (again, by the PF's own proclamaiton), ie Rachel.

I think Rachel stopped being considered the one true Phoenix once the Phoenix essentially ditched her.

[XPac]

Yea, and you had to get the comentary on issue 5 to get that. If you hadn't been paying any attention to the X-titles you'd be wondering what was up with Scott and if you were only following the X-titles Cap doesn't come off as reasonable either. Buying all of the titles, going online to the discussions, reading or listening to the interviews... that's a lot of work that wouldn't be necessary with more attention to plotting and build up.

This is sort of what I talked about earlier... for MOST people you don't need the commentary.

Logan at the start of the story informs both Cap and the readers that Scott isn't going to be able to be objective about the matter. He's going to have his own agenda and he's not even going to be able to see it. For MOST readers, that's all you need to know. A writing going on-line and confirming that Scotts figuratively selling his soul and humanity is really just for that 1% of readers that need the whole thing more spelled out.