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  1. #5776
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly I find Phoenixs actions in that regard highly questionable. Destroying every planet in it's path seems pretty tough to justify in my book at least.

    But then again, if it wasn't acting in such a dangerous fashion maybe the Avengers wouldn't have responded the way they did. If they'd just shrugged and allowed Scott to handle it, like Gillen said, earth would be destroyed.

    It's also possible that Phoenix doesn't or can't even think in those terms. Maybes it's like a hurricane or an earthquake or something... it just does what does.

    All I can say is that intentional or not, it acted in a manner which scared the Avengers to the point where they were able to do exactly the things needed to resolve the situation. And for earth at least, it was probably worth it. I'm sure the people living on those worlds the Phoenix destroyed would obviously disagree if they were alive to do so.
    I'd go with the hurricane or Earthquake but we've seen the PF actively talk to Jean before replacing her and I think there have been a few other indications of intelligence. No, in this case I think we have to go with simple bad plotting.

  2. #5777
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    What about the people who fought side by side with Scott? Couldn't they have given them the benefit of the doubt? They are saying in effect 'We don't trust you with the safety of the planet even though you've saved it before.' This is Tony and Cap, two current members of the Illuminati. Scott could point out that it was the Illuminati who put the world in jeopardy by shooting the Hulk into space, how does he know that Hope's not just the latest version of the Hulk? He could point out that the Illuminati aggravated the skrull situation by going to the skrull homeworld and getting themselves captured, thus putting the world in more danger from the skrulls than before since they learned from the captives. What if their actions make things worse? He's dealt with the Phoenix before, what makes them right and him wrong? Cap also represents the US government, hardly a mutant friendly group. There is a list of reasons for Scott not to trust Cap and the Avengers and an even longer list for the Avengers not trust each other.
    It doesn't make sense to me for these people to trust each other or even like each other after all that they've done too each other. Scott in my opinion was showing a perfectly reasonable attitude toward a group of people who've nearly all fought against each other and betrayed each other, why should he trust them?
    To me really boils down to a simple question... are you better off working with the Avengers, or fighting them? Because obviously shooting at him is going to start a fight.

    And even if you don't entirely trust the Avengers, I think you can make a good arguement that getting into a fight, abadoning your home and your students, and becoming fugitives just doesn't seem like a more attractive outcome than working with the Avengers. Even if it means doing it on their terms, to me at least the conflict option doesn't sound a whole lot more desirable.

    Of course, in hindsight I think you can fairly argue the conflict HAD to happen in order to set up the events needed to get the result we got. It's possible if the Avengers and X-Men were chummy chummy buds from day one we wouldn't have gotten a Phoenix buster, which essentially saved the world from being destroyed. You can argue the teams essentially needed to be in a state of conflict to buy Hope the time she needed. But obviously we're going into What If territory, so its hard to say.

  3. #5778

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    working with the avengers , in cyclops' mind, would get mutantkind extinct. he couldnt have that.

    in fact, X-Sanction event shows us that, had Cable not warned Cyclops to stop the Avengers from arresting Hope(why do we forget that?), the result would be a nuclear winter(we dont know why).

    and regarding cyclops "not trusting poeople he has fought together with"... WHEN?

    the x-men have helped the avengers save homo sapiens lots of times... when have the Avengers helped the x-men save homo superior/mutants? which begs the question...

    you do understand humans(homo sapiens) are NOT the same species as mutants(homo superior), right? if an Ape was a hero to other apes, would you consider him hero to humans too?

  4. #5779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    working with the avengers , in cyclops' mind, would get mutantkind extinct. he couldnt have that.

    in fact, X-Sanction event shows us that, had Cable not warned Cyclops to stop the Avengers from arresting Hope(why do we forget that?), the result would be a nuclear winter(we dont know why).

    and regarding cyclops "not trusting poeople he has fought together with"... WHEN?

    the x-men have helped the avengers save homo sapiens lots of times... when have the Avengers helped the x-men save homo superior/mutants? which begs the question...

    you do understand humans(homo sapiens) are NOT the same species as mutants(homo superior), right? if an Ape was a hero to other apes, would you consider him hero to humans too?
    During Mutant Massacre, the Avengers where fighting The Marauders in the sewers right alongside the X-Men. When Bastion sealed Utopia in an unbreakable dome, The Avengers were there trying to beat it down. When Wolverine got possessed in Enemy of the State, the Avengers were there helping the X-men recapture him. During Onslaught the Avengers literally sacrificed themselves to help the X-men stop Onslaught.

    Where were the X-men during Disassembled?
    "Cyclops is gonna fry for what he did. Can't wait!" - Cancerous

  5. #5780
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    To me really boils down to a simple question... are you better off working with the Avengers, or fighting them? Because obviously shooting at him is going to start a fight.
    That depends on whether your race can survive the Avengers plans and if those plans are rational. The saving grace for the Avengers is that every one of thier plans before Iron Fist folks got involved failed.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And even if you don't entirely trust the Avengers, I think you can make a good arguement that getting into a fight, abadoning your home and your students, and becoming fugitives just doesn't seem like a more attractive outcome than working with the Avengers. Even if it means doing it on their terms, to me at least the conflict option doesn't sound a whole lot more desirable.
    How could they have stopped the Avengers from taking Hope without fighting? Cap didn't come to negotiate since when Cyke tried to talk to him he blew him off
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Of course, in hindsight I think you can fairly argue the conflict HAD to happen in order to set up the events needed to get the result we got. It's possible if the Avengers and X-Men were chummy chummy buds from day one we wouldn't have gotten a Phoenix buster, which essentially saved the world from being destroyed. You can argue the teams essentially needed to be in a state of conflict to buy Hope the time she needed. But obviously we're going into What If territory, so its hard to say.
    A agian the Avengers saving grace was incompetence, if the Phoenix buster had worked as intend the universe might have died and the mutant would still be going extinct.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  6. #5781
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    To me really boils down to a simple question... are you better off working with the Avengers, or fighting them? Because obviously shooting at him is going to start a fight.

    And even if you don't entirely trust the Avengers, I think you can make a good arguement that getting into a fight, abadoning your home and your students, and becoming fugitives just doesn't seem like a more attractive outcome than working with the Avengers. Even if it means doing it on their terms, to me at least the conflict option doesn't sound a whole lot more desirable.

    Of course, in hindsight I think you can fairly argue the conflict HAD to happen in order to set up the events needed to get the result we got. It's possible if the Avengers and X-Men were chummy chummy buds from day one we wouldn't have gotten a Phoenix buster, which essentially saved the world from being destroyed. You can argue the teams essentially needed to be in a state of conflict to buy Hope the time she needed. But obviously we're going into What If territory, so its hard to say.
    True, but I think that -as in cw- I have to point out that these are people who are used to being the underdogs. Used to fighting impossible odds and winning. Why give in when experience shows you that you can win even against a superior force? Especially when you don't trust that force?

    Again a lot of it is in my opinion very bad, very forced writing. It seems like marvel throws these things together at the last minute and then goes home early. Either that or to figure out where Scott is coming from you have to read every X-related title out there. Or read or listen to every interview. Considering how little moral structure there is in the mu and how quickly the characters shift sides I think I'm safe in always rooting for the villains. After all even the worst of them will end up an Avenger or an X-men someday. Might as well save some time and root for them now.
    Last edited by Mark_S; 01-26-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  7. #5782
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagSeven View Post
    During Mutant Massacre, the Avengers where fighting The Marauders in the sewers right alongside the X-Men. When Bastion sealed Utopia in an unbreakable dome, The Avengers were there trying to beat it down. When Wolverine got possessed in Enemy of the State, the Avengers were there helping the X-men recapture him. During Onslaught the Avengers literally sacrificed themselves to help the X-men stop Onslaught.

    Where were the X-men during Disassembled?
    The Avengers work for one of the X-men worse enemies.

    In this event didn't even bother to try and talk with Scott before they blew him off and decided that they were in charge, that on the advice of a pathic liar with a grudge.

    The fight might have been avoided if Cap had talked with s Scott before fore he blew him off. Cap made demands and the only negotiation he offered was to allow the X-men to help with plans that harmed the mutants
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  8. #5783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    True, but I think that -as in cw- I have to point out that these are people who are used to being the underdogs. Used to fighting impossible odds and winning. Why give in when experience shows you that you can win even against a superior force? Especially when you don't trust that force?

    Again a lot of it is in my opinion very bad, very forced writing. It seems like marvel throws these things together at the last minute and then goes home early. Either that or to figure out where Scott is coming from you have to read every X-related title out there. Or read or listen to every interview. Considering how little moral structure there is in the mu and how quickly the characters shift sides I think I'm safe in always rooting for the villains. After all even the worst of them will end up an Avenger or an X-men someday. Might as well save some time and root for them now.
    I think there's a difference between cooperation and giving in though. A middle ground is possible in theory.

    But Scott just wasn't at that place by the time this story began.

    Here's once description of Scott that Fraction gave in the AvX commentary (though admittedly it was for issue 5 instead of 1).

    "This is everything he's done since "House of M" and "Messiah CompleX." Every bit of his soul he's had to sell, every ounce of his humanity that he's had to barter, every moment of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, every ounce of compassion that he's had to rid himself of was pointing here."

    When the writers are describing a guy that's selling his soul, his humanity, and his compassion then you're likely not taking about a guy that's going to try and negotiate with you. You're talking about a guy that's going to shoot you. So it likely wasn't meant to be... and Steve was told beforehand that this was probably the case.

  9. #5784
    I AM GROOT! soundjam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    you do understand humans(homo sapiens) are NOT the same species as mutants(homo superior), right? if an Ape was a hero to other apes, would you consider him hero to humans too?
    I never bought that. You try to sleep with an ape and procreate. I imagine that it wouldn't work. Not quite so with humans and mutants.

    That, and I can't count the number of times that a mutant tells another mutant that "your only human."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    The Avengers work for one of the X-men worse enemies.
    And, once again, when you start off with a lie, you kind of invalidate the rest of your point.

  11. #5786
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    And, once again, when you start off with a lie, you kind of invalidate the rest of your point.
    That and he didn't address a single thing I said. It was like a talking point out of nowhere!
    "Cyclops is gonna fry for what he did. Can't wait!" - Cancerous

  12. #5787
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundjam View Post
    I never bought that. You try to sleep with an ape and procreate. I imagine that it wouldn't work. Not quite so with humans and mutants.

    That, and I can't count the number of times that a mutant tells another mutant that "your only human."
    Very good point. Marvel has always separated the Mutants from Superhumans and Average Joe, but they really aren't that different. What is Cyclops really fighting for at all? "Oh I want random people to be born with powers. Some awesome (and I'll get those guys good gigs.), some that will disfigure them (where they will live in the sewers or get killed in throwaway stories) , others that will accidentally kill everyone around them. People getting powers at puberty is VERY important to me! Fu*ck you, Captain America!!!! F*ck you, rest of the world!!!"
    "Cyclops is gonna fry for what he did. Can't wait!" - Cancerous

  13. #5788
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think there's a difference between cooperation and giving in though. A middle ground is possible in theory.

    But Scott just wasn't at that place by the time this story began.

    Here's once description of Scott that Fraction gave in the AvX commentary (though admittedly it was for issue 5 instead of 1).

    "This is everything he's done since "House of M" and "Messiah CompleX." Every bit of his soul he's had to sell, every ounce of his humanity that he's had to barter, every moment of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, every ounce of compassion that he's had to rid himself of was pointing here."

    When the writers are describing a guy that's selling his soul, his humanity, and his compassion then you're likely not taking about a guy that's going to try and negotiate with you. You're talking about a guy that's going to shoot you. So it likely wasn't meant to be... and Steve was told beforehand that this was probably the case.
    Yea, and you had to get the comentary on issue 5 to get that. If you hadn't been paying any attention to the X-titles you'd be wondering what was up with Scott and if you were only following the X-titles Cap doesn't come off as reasonable either. Buying all of the titles, going online to the discussions, reading or listening to the interviews... that's a lot of work that wouldn't be necessary with more attention to plotting and build up.

  14. #5789
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    And if Cyclops plan didn't work, both races would be doomed.

    Again, I think a solution where there was a chance of the entire planet being destroyed if it went wrong would have been something everyone would avoid.

    Plus, there was the fact that the writers did point out that Cyclops was wrong and Hope wasn't ready and she WOULD HAVE destroyed the world if she bonded when Cyclops WANTED her to.
    All that shows is that the writers (again) didn't know what they're doing. Rachel Summers/Grey is the One True Phoenix by the PF's own proclamation (Excalibur Vol 1). She could (and has) utilized the Phoenix full force w/o going "Dark Phoenix".

    But that would be admitting that the X-Men didn't start with Morrison's frakked up hatchet job on characters and conrinuity, wouldn't it...?

  15. #5790
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In Phoenixs very first story it went nuts in it's host after going dark and caused death and destruction. This wasn't all that different in a lot of ways. The point was that Hope couldn't control the Phoenix at the time (like Jean couldn't control it).

    But with the help of the Avengers, she DID learn ton control it and was able to do good with it.

    So I think in the end there was a definate balance there.
    Would not have been needed if they'd brought in the One True Phoenix (again, by the PF's own proclamaiton), ie Rachel.

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