The Bad Guys of AvX?

[TonyStark1012]

So you're arguing that it was all due to the training, despite the fact that we're specifically told that she hadn't completed it Scott showed up? Not to mention the fact that she had already controlled it's power dozen of times before without said training, and so did the P5? ... Alright.

Well why did Cyclops say she couldn't handle it and keep it from her? Before she didn't have any training and she couldn't control it. She got some training and then she could. It's not complicated.

[princerobvin]

In the first few issues there wasn't a bad guy, I think towards the end is when Cyclops became the bad guy of AVX. I didn't realize this until the last 3 issues of AVX and then after I read AVX: Consequences and now the All New X-men comic books that I see clearly how Cyclops was the bad guy in AVX.

[Apathy Lad]

The biggest problem with the training is not how it happened, it's that it's a slipshod justification to shoe-horn the Avengers into a story that should have been all about the X-Men.

That aside, how does reenacting scenes from the Karate Kid count to controlling a sentient, cosmic force of life?

[TonyStark1012]

The biggest problem with the training is not how it happened, it's that it's a slipshod justification to shoe-horn the Avengers into a story that should have been all about the X-Men.

That aside, how does reenacting scenes from the Karate Kid count to controlling a sentient, cosmic force of life?

Won't argue with you about the shoe horninng, but Bendis did a whole issue with the making a history between the Kun Lun and the phoenix. It taight hope about control. Whether you or I like how it was written can be debated, but that was made apart of the story. She didn't grasp it before Kun Lun and Danny's help, but she handled it after.

[Ebon Phantom]

Well why did Cyclops say she couldn't handle it and keep it from her? Before she didn't have any training and she couldn't control it. She got some training and then she could. It's not complicated.

That didn't have anything to do with training, it was about the way she had acted. Fact still remains that she was shown controlling it's power before said training and we were directly told that she hadn't completed her training later on when she beat Scott. This was all shown in-series. So at the very least, the training wasn't critical but situational.

[JaggedFel]

I suppose this is the advantage AvX has over Civil War. Both sides can declare victory

[marvell2100]

Didn't everyone walk away relatively unscathed? Well, except for Xavier.

[XPac]

I suppose this is the advantage AvX has over Civil War. Both sides can declare victory

Yeah, the way the story was set up it really ended up being Avengers and X-Men working together in the end to save the world. So there were no real losers there. Cyclops was beaten, but even he got what he wanted. So essentially things ended.

You could make the arguement the X-Men essentially conceding that the Avengers were right was somewhat of a philisophical loss, but on the flip side you can argue the X-Men ultimately benefited from the event (even though they likewise also paid a higher price) while the Avengers at best broke even. But all that ultimately pales in comparrison to saving the world, which is what the Avengers and X-Men united to do. Compared to that, everyone essentially won since that's all that really mattered.

[TonyStark1012]

That didn't have anything to do with training, it was about the way she had acted. Fact still remains that she was shown controlling it's power before said training and we were directly told that she hadn't completed her training later on when she beat Scott. This was all shown in-series. So at the very least, the training wasn't critical but situational.

Again it's in the book. We just agree to disagree. She didn't have the full phoenix until Avs.X as the phoenix didn't get to earth yet. Again before kun lun she couldn't handle it. After she could.

[XPac]

That didn't have anything to do with training, it was about the way she had acted. Fact still remains that she was shown controlling it's power before said training and we were directly told that she hadn't completed her training later on when she beat Scott. This was all shown in-series. So at the very least, the training wasn't critical but situational.

Can you cite anything in the actual books which states that her sucessfully being able to control the Phoenix had nothing to do with the training?

Because I can site something which actually states on panel that she needs it.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starw...57232/1000.jpg

[TonyStark1012]

Can you cite anything in the actual books which states that her sucessfully being able to control the Phoenix had nothing to do with the training?

Because I can site something which actually states on panel that she needs it.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starw...57232/1000.jpg

Exactly! Thank you XPac. It's not hard to understand. It's in the books!

[Sleepwalker42]

I just want to say how happy I am that I launched a thread with this type of success rate;]

[Ebon Phantom]

Again it's in the book. We just agree to disagree. She didn't have the full phoenix until Avs.X as the phoenix didn't get to earth yet. Again before kun lun she couldn't handle it. After she could.

And again, the part you keep skipping is the whole "training not finished" issue, where we see her controlling it despite not having completed the "nessecery" training. Which is my point: that if she was capable of controlling it with only a bit of training, then the training wasn't all that important, now was it?

Can you cite anything in the actual books which states that her sucessfully being able to control the Phoenix had nothing to do with the training?

Because I can site something which actually states on panel that she needs it.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starw...57232/1000.jpg

How about the part where we're told she hadn't completed said training yet went on to master it?

[XPac]

And again, the part you keep skipping is the whole "training not finished" issue, where we see her controlling it despite not having completed the "nessecery" training. Which is my point: that if she was capable of controlling it with only a bit of training, then the training wasn't all that important, now was it?

How about the part where we're told she hadn't completed said training yet went on to master it?

Just because the traininng wasn't completed doesn't mean it what training she got didn't make a difference.

I'll ask again, can you cite anything in the actual book which actually states being able to control the Phoenix had nothing to do with the training? Because as I said, I can site something which actually states on panel that she needs it. If you can't, then with all due respect there's not a whole lot of reason anyone should take your word on the matter over the actual book.

[Ebon Phantom]

But the training not being completed is the whole point. The original issue was that the training done by the Iron Fist was shown quite similar to what Scott had attempted to have Hope do in the beginning of the event, and that the only differences between the two trainings was both Spider-man's involvement (which amounted to nothing shown/recon to Wanda's words) and the final act of fighting that anti-Phoenix dragon (which Hope never got too). These are things shown in the comic. So my claim that all that could have been accomplished without Iron Fist(Avengers) is fully valid by what we were shown, since as you acknowledged, only the first part of the training at most was needed. And since she would have gotten that in either outcome...