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  1. #4636
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    He did nothing to bring them together, so he was irreverent in bringing back the mutants.
    Again. Read the books. Everyone else seen it except you.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  2. #4637
    Senior Member Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Tony had a plan to kill the PF, and that would have killed the Universe and or doomed the mutants. If he had a plan to save the mutants he did nothing to further that plan.
    Didn't Hope and Wanda erase the Phoenix from all reality when they said "No more Phoenix?" The universe is still here, so I guess it's not a big deal. (Besides, why would the "One Above All" allow some cosmic space chicken to decide when his universe will be destroyed anyways?)

  3. #4638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    But you had to ask ACESX1X for the link to clarify wether a scene in the story actually mattered. So to know that you had to buy the issue, go to this websight, get a link to the podcast and then ask for an actual quote. That doesn't sounds like buying and reading the issue gave you the entire correct version of the story. Without ACESX1X how could you know what part of the issue did or did not matter?
    Thats not at all what i asked acesxix.
    Support titles that need supporting. Quit buying, reading and complaining about comics you don't enjoy.

  4. #4639
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Scott of course being the wise leader and also concerned about planetary safety consulted Hope about what she wanted.....oh wait.
    Why would he consult Hope? She had less experience, and clearly wouldn't have known any more then he did. Probably less. Not seeing what being a wise leader has to do with consulting a teenager. And the entire reason he wanted to keep her away from the Avengers was out of concern over the Earth's safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    They have no such knowledge. They never saw Phoenix directly destroy a planet like what was happening.
    Why would they have to directly see it to know it happen? And you do realize that you're basically claiming that because the Avengers really didn't believe that the Phoenix was a threat til they saw it in action, so their attempt to take Hope was unjustified as claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The reason I believe the Avengers would want Hope to surrender the Phoenix is because they made it pretty clear they didn't want the Phoenix around if possible. If you think the Avengers would prefer the Phoenix hanging around on earth, I guess we can agree to disagree. I think there are plenty of instances in the story which would suggest that wouldn't be Steve's preference.
    There in lies the point. Cap and the Avengers made it clear multiple times they didn't want the Phoenix around at all and only changed their opinion when they had no other choice. If they had gone the Avenger way, they never would have even got to the point where mutants could be restored. Scott's way at the very least laid the foundation for the eventual revival. Only Scott's path could have lead to any sort of conclusion for both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far judging things by what was directly shown... from that perspective things are actually pretty single. Hope couldn't control the Phoenix on the moon. That was shown. She confirmed that both during and after the fact.

    We're told that she needed Kun Lun training and we're shown her capable of controlling the Phoenix on her second attempt after getting the training that we're told in the story which would allow her to control it.

    So as far as controlling the Phoenix, the story tells us Kun Lun training was needed to control it. She couldn't control it before she had the training and she could control it afterwards. Going by what was shown, I think the Kun Lun training from the Avengers clearly proved it's value.
    Hope panicking on the moon doesn't mean she wouldn't have been able to control the Phoenix. Taking in the Phoenix is not an easy experience, as we witness with the other hosts. She clearly didn't think she would have any issue after the fact. Not to mention, that we were told by the Phoenix itself that it wanted to be used by her. It's not as if the Phoenix would have been fighting against her control. Heck, if Scott can control it, Hope surely could.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Scott arrived, she hadn't even completed her training. So the Kun Lun training wasn't that necessary if she could manage without completing it. Regardless, the story also told us that by using the Lights, Hope would have been able to achieve the same results. It was said to be the entire purpose the Lights were created for and considering we have the Phoenix itself talking about coming to serve under Hope, every piece of the puzzle suggest that it would have worked too.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as letting the Phoenix go... I'm certainly not sure any one thing can be proven responsible for that outside of Wanda. So if one wanted to give Wanda all the credit there, I wouldn't fault anyone for that. You can argue in hindsight Stark should get some since he said this was essentially what he had in mind the whole time... but either way Wanda probably gets more credit.
    I agree. Wanda was critical for that stage, though I wouldn't discount the Phoenix or Scott, given the fact that letting go was utilized by them just moments before. So they would have been aware of the option. Anyway, the point is that Wanda was the key, but Wanda doesn't equal the Avengers. Wanda came to the Avengers, not the other way around. And she could have just as easily came to the X-men, given both her prophetic dreams and own father believing she was needed. She was hardly unique to the Avengers side.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm frankly hesitant to give the X-Men any credit in that regard simply because it sounded to me like Scott wanted Hope to keep the Phoenix. Nothing he said, to my recollection at least, demonstrated that hey wanted Hope to release it at any point. And he does in fact have a history of deciding to just life with Phoenix hosts. So yeah... without Avengers involvement I at least strongly suspect we wouldn't have achieved the desired outcome. At best, we'd just have a Phoenix powered Hope, though I don't think we'd even have that since I don't think Scott would have been able to provide her with the proper training to control it.
    That's pretty faulty reasoning. Up until that point, nothing the Avengers said would have indicated likewise. Regardless, as mentioned before, nothing at all suggest that the revival of mutantkind could have only happen that one way. We were told the Lights could have been used to achieve that result and we saw that the Phoenix desired that outcome itself. You mean, without Wanda's involvement, as we established above. And Scott was shown providing her with the same sort of training. It was the same sort of Kun Lun training, minus fighting a dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The Avengers involvement allowed for all the right pieces to come into play, which got us the end result that everyone sought. Which just makes common sense... as I said earlier, there's no reason Marvel would produce a story where the Avengers were completely unecessary and Scott was 100% right. It's what anyone and everyone frankly should have expected going into the story, and it's what we got.
    How is that? Hope getting the Phoenix, being able to use it to revive mutantkind, Wanda getting involved. All the pieces were already there, waiting to come together. All the Avengers did was delay the end results. I'm not seeing how you can consider them necessary when they spent the major of the event being punching bags.

  5. #4640
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    How could you say the training wasn't important. When the first time she had the phoenix even Cyclops said she wasn't ready for it, but after her training she handled it. That's pretty simple.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  6. #4641
    The curious one.
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    I hope that they plan things out better the next time the Phoenix shows up.

  7. #4642
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    How could you say the training wasn't important. When the first time she had the phoenix even Cyclops said she wasn't ready for it, but after her training she handled it. That's pretty simple.
    Because of the aforementioned incompleteness? She had gotten only partially through said training, so it couldn't have had that big of an effect. More likely her control was due to confidence, which would fit with her earlier usage and other examples.

  8. #4643
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    Oh God is this thread still going?

  9. #4644
    Quickkill GM DiceRoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenComixEnvy View Post
    Oh God is this thread still going?
    It will never end. We can only pray that the hatred does not get passed down to the youth.

  10. #4645
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    Because of the aforementioned incompleteness? She had gotten only partially through said training, so it couldn't have had that big of an effect. More likely her control was due to confidence, which would fit with her earlier usage and other examples.
    It wasn't due to confidence. It was because she was trained. How can you not see that as it was right there and an important part of the book? Whether you like it or not is not the point. Before she got the training she couldn't handle the phoenix. After she got it she could. PERIOD. Right there in the books for all to see.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  11. #4646
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiceRoll View Post
    It will never end. We can only pray that the hatred does not get passed down to the youth.
    If only.

    10 char

  12. #4647
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    It wasn't due to confidence. It was because she was trained. How can you not see that as it was right there and an important part of the book? Whether you like it or not is not the point. Before she got the training she couldn't handle the phoenix. After she got it she could. PERIOD. Right there in the books for all to see.
    So you're arguing that it was all due to the training, despite the fact that we're specifically told that she hadn't completed it Scott showed up? Not to mention the fact that she had already controlled it's power dozen of times before without said training, and so did the P5? ... Alright.

  13. #4648
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiceRoll View Post
    It will never end. We can only pray that the hatred does not get passed down to the youth.
    On the other hand, we might have found the secret to perpetual motion.

  14. #4649
    The curious one.
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    It's far easier to generate anger than it is to extinguish it. The marvel writers set out to generate anger, they never bother to think about ways of extinguishing it. I believe that they like us angry and arguing with each other.

  15. #4650
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I hope that they plan things out better the next time the Phoenix shows up.
    Shows up? It is still on Earth, in a million new mutants. It corrupted 5 staunch X-Men, I doubt a million confused kids have much hope.
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
    Brian C Wood

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