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  1. #4291
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagSeven View Post
    He attacked a government official acting on a Presidential Order. Cyke was in the wrong.
    From an X-perspective, someone being backed by a government makes them suspect or villainous by default. Bishop started on the road to being an omnicidal monster when he signed up to a government post and was pro-regulation. Dozens of future and present stories have anti-mutant laws and government groups as antagonistic forces.

    Cap gave Scott an ultimatum. Regardless of whether Scott had refuted him verbally or blasted him, the result would have been the Avengers invading Utopia. Steve came armed and in uniform, not as a diplomat. He met them on a beach, not in their base. I don't think he came under a white flag. All indications were that the US government was demanding something immediately, and the Avengers leader was armed and ready to take it by force. It smacked of arrogance and high-handedness.

    The Avengers are irrefutably an antagonistic force. The heroes were the X-Men, and by the end hardly any X-Men were in the moral right either. The Phoenix was not evil, and only corrupted after idiots attacked and broke it, much like Endsong. There are ways for utilizing the Phoenix for good and avoiding corruption. The US government should know better than to try $%^& with a cosmic force of destruction. Only a handful of X-Men had the knowledge to do that, and Logan knows jack-all about the Phoenix. This is all more or less Nick Lowe's position, which I will take any day over Breevort.
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
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  2. #4292
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiric_cannibal View Post
    From an X-perspective, someone being backed by a government makes them suspect or villainous by default. Bishop started on the road to being an omnicidal monster when he signed up to a government post and was pro-regulation. Dozens of future and present stories have anti-mutant laws and government groups as antagonistic forces.

    Cap gave Scott an ultimatum. Regardless of whether Scott had refuted him verbally or blasted him, the result would have been the Avengers invading Utopia. Steve came armed and in uniform, not as a diplomat. He met them on a beach, not in their base. I don't think he came under a white flag. All indications were that the US government was demanding something immediately, and the Avengers leader was armed and ready to take it by force. It smacked of arrogance and high-handedness.

    The Avengers are irrefutably an antagonistic force. The heroes were the X-Men, and by the end hardly any X-Men were in the moral right either. The Phoenix was not evil, and only corrupted after idiots attacked and broke it, much like Endsong. There are ways for utilizing the Phoenix for good and avoiding corruption. The US government should know better than to try $%^& with a cosmic force of destruction. Only a handful of X-Men had the knowledge to do that, and Logan knows jack-all about the Phoenix. This is all more or less Nick Lowe's position, which I will take any day over Breevort.
    There were ways for utilizing the Phoenix for good and avoiding corruption... that's essentially what we got at the end of the story. By the end of the story, because of the training Hope got from the Avengers, Hope was able to do good with the Phoenix by fixing the damage Dark Phoenix caused before releasing it's power and restarting the mutant gene.

    The key to the problem was that Hope needed certain things to control the Phoenix... and that's an aspect of the story Scott wasn't aware of. You can't even really blame him for not knowing that... really, how could he? But the bottom line is that Scott made his share of mistakes based on a lack of knowledge of the situation, same as everyone else. But in the end Hope got the help she needed, the world was saved, and it worked out great for everyone.

  3. #4293
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    In all honestly, there's a difference between making a mistake due to lack of info and making a mistake due to stupidness. And I would say the implication was shown there was several ways to achieve the end result, given all that was shown.

  4. #4294
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Problem is that while Cyclops was right that the Phoenix could restore mutantkind, he was wrong about how ready Hope was (among other things). Even Gillan himself stated in interview that had things gone the way that Cyclops wanted, the Earth would have been destroyed. While people don't like what the Avengers did in the event, it was their intervention that ended up giving Hope the time and training that she needed to take on her destiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And that's where the balance of the story really comes from.

    Scott was right about Phoenix restoring mutants, but wrong in thinking that Hope could control it at the time. He was right about some things and CLEARLY wrong about some. Just like pretty much everyone else. And realistically that's how the story should have gone. I'm sure some X-readers wish that Scott was 100% right and the Avengers were 100% wrong, but obviously they weren't going to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Yea between these, talk of how Gold team are the Avengers lapdogs (seriously WTF?) and all around Avengers bashing, I think I've gotten so bored that I switch to a cynical personality when I see one of these threads. Seriously, AvX is over, get over it people and move on. It's not healthy to spend so much energy dwelling in the past like that.
    This sums it up perfectly!!

    Personally Scott took a gamble and seriously lucked out that's how I see the whole ordeal

  5. #4295
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    In all honestly, there's a difference between making a mistake due to lack of info and making a mistake due to stupidness. And I would say the implication was shown there was several ways to achieve the end result, given all that was shown.
    I think you can frankly argue both sides were guilty of some degree of stupidity in the event (though I would still argue a lot of those mistakes turned out pretty well in the long run).

    But for all the mistakes the Avengers and X-Men arguably made, I think the important thing is that both teams ended up working together to save the world.

  6. #4296
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    This is true. Without Iron Fist's training. Hope would not have been ready to handle the phoenix. Both sides had there rights and wrongs.
    I'm pretty sure that she n knew how to carry buckets of water before Iron Fist came up with that stupid "Karate Kid" BS.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  7. #4297
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    The Avengers at least had the authority and grounds for they did. There was a huge threat incoming and they needed the X-men to cooperate with them. Were they as fully informed about the nature of the phoenix as they should have been? No, but based on what they knew(hell even with the fact that the force has been controlled before) they were still in the right as far as I'm concerned, since an unstable force like that should not have been ALLOWED to come to earth. They can't just take the X-mens word for it. That would be irresponsible especially given that its their job to make sure things like this don't happen. To me the Avengers were always right, but always ignorant about some of the history of the phoenix (not like the X-men tried to tell them more about it or anything).

    The X-men meanwhile took over the world because they thought they knew better. With no regulating agent or accountability or sanctioning. They said, hey lets just take the military powers of every nation on earth away and say that if anybody does anything we don't like they'll answer to us! What could possibly go wrong?We're the good guys right? People should know that, what have we done that makes us a threat?

    And yet they were surprised when the Avengers still fought against them for some reason. honestly I can't believe that scott has done what he has over the past publishing year. He's making himself, and their by the group he represented the mutants and X-men, look like loose canon dangers to society... mostly because they are. Or he and his people are. I mean really scott? With the outlaw image now? You were the face of mutant kind, what message do you think that sends if you start acting out? You're literally making everyone of you're opponents right about mutant kind. Perception is everything, you can't just say screw the world then go on a PUBLIC outlaw streak when you were the face of your race. I get that mutant threats need to be fought without federal eyes but you're not helping your kind by making a thing about it.

    I think the big difference between what they did is that Avengers represented the world at large while the X-men (or rather Cyclops) showed they didn't care about their place in it anymore. They'll protect the MU from villains and aren't going to go robbing banks or anyhting(as far as I know). But they've completely stopped adhering to the world around them, which is a dangerous path for a group looking to better themselves in the eyes of the world. They've gone delusional.

    The Avengers are not fascists. They're just doing their jobs. The only reason people can think of them as fascists is because they didn't let the X-men do as they please over the rights of others and fought to stop them. They're "The Man" so people will have a problem with them. The group is not infallible by any means, but they look like saints next to the rogue parts of the X-men.

    ... And let the angry retorts begin... sigh.
    Only "following orders" and "Just doing their" jobs are tired excuses in the real world and the comics.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  8. #4298
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagSeven View Post
    He attacked a government official acting on a Presidential Order. Cyke was in the wrong.
    In the MU the villains often have presidential orders, your logic makes Bastion right. That thinking makes concentration camps for mutants right also.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  9. #4299
    Few days on drugs? Lovely pepper's Avatar
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    I can't wait for the next issue of AvX so all this arguing will stop.

  10. #4300
    Futurist Detective TonyStark1012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    I'm pretty sure that she n knew how to carry buckets of water before Iron Fist came up with that stupid "Karate Kid" BS.
    He trained her how to handle it. It was more than hand buckets. What you think or your opinion is not relevant. It's right there in the book. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less true. Also I notice how you didn't say anything when Cyclops tried taking Hope against her will from Iron Fist and Kun Lun. I guess it's only kidnapping or attempted kidnapping when the Avengers do it.
    Last edited by TonyStark1012; 11-26-2012 at 11:54 PM.
    "That's not just "one man"! That's TONY FREAKING STARK. You're intel should've warned us that he was James Bond and "Q" wrapped in the same guy!" Cobra

  11. #4301
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    Wolverine was the big bad in AvX. He killed the last South-polar bear, now the species dies out.

    How dare you you bloody monster!

    [IMG]http://www4.pictures.gi.***********/Polar+Bear+Cub+Stuttgart+Zoo+A-2OjnwtIh7l.jpg[/IMG]
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  12. #4302
    Junior Member Fifolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    Wolverine was the big bad in AvX. He killed the last South-polar bear, now the species dies out.

    How dare you you bloody monster!

    [IMG]http://www4.pictures.gi.***********/Polar+Bear+Cub+Stuttgart+Zoo+A-2OjnwtIh7l.jpg[/IMG]
    LOLOL
    that pretty much points out the real bad guys of this event - the writers and editors.

  13. #4303
    Few days on drugs? Lovely pepper's Avatar
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    That monster! He could have just kept warm in one of the many research stations! And let's not forget the empty beer cans just left there- some poor penguin's probably got it's head stuck in one.

  14. #4304
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    I'm pretty sure that she n knew how to carry buckets of water before Iron Fist came up with that stupid "Karate Kid" BS.
    What she have known how to carry buckets of water, but what didn't know how to do was control the Phoenix... as we saw on the moon, and as she herself admitted after the fact. After her training on Kun Lun, she could. Which I think you can credibly argue ended up being fairly important.

  15. #4305
    Senior Member Apathy Lad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    What she have known how to carry buckets of water, but what didn't know how to do was control the Phoenix... as we saw on the moon, and as she herself admitted after the fact. After her training on Kun Lun, she could. Which I think you can credibly argue ended up being fairly important.
    The Karate Kid bullcrap is the equivalent of Age of Ultron ending with Foggy Nelson and Howard the Duck jumping in and saving the day.
    "but the 616 is set in America."

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