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  1. #106
    Veteran Member gregyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chaos View Post
    Theres a major difference between the kids in the academy and the ones on Utopia, the academy people respect and follow the Avengers, they're no danger to the effort to stop the phoenix from scorching the earth.

    The kids from utopia follow Cyclops and thus can't be trusted. If they want to fight the Avengers and act like super powered criminals, they're going to be treated like ones.
    So why weren't the Runaways forced to stay at AA? They've done about as much wrong as the X-kids, which is to say NONE, and they're parents were actual super-villains, though some radical Avengers fans would have you believe the X-men are as well.

    You can't treat someone as a criminal if they AREN'T a criminal.

  2. #107
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chaos View Post
    Theres a major difference between the kids in the academy and the ones on Utopia, the academy people respect and follow the Avengers, they're no danger to the effort to stop the phoenix from scorching the earth.

    The kids from utopia follow Cyclops and thus can't be trusted. If they want to fight the Avengers and act like super powered criminals, they're going to be treated like ones.
    Do you see how you have already decided what they want to do?
    First, you assume that because they live in Utopia they follow Cyclops, then that it means they can't be trusted. Then, that they will fight the Avengers, and that because they fight the Avengers they must be criminals. So it's okay to treat them like criminals. You didn't even give them the benefit of the doubt. I am not even sure any of them want to do anything like that. They mostly just have a problem with being locked up. I think Surge and Velocidad are the only ones that MAY do it.

  3. #108
    Senior Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    So why weren't the Runaways forced to stay at AA? They've done about as much wrong as the X-kids, which is to say NONE, and they're parents were actual super-villains, though some radical Avengers fans would have you believe the X-men are as well.

    You can't treat someone as a criminal if they AREN'T a criminal.
    Because the Runaways arenīt likely to join the X-Men and attack the Avengers, thus 1.-putting their own lives at risk and 2.-putting the world at risk of being destroyed by the Phoenix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    Do you see how you have already decided what they want to do?
    First, you assume that because they live in Utopia they follow Cyclops, then that it means they can't be trusted. Then, that they will fight the Avengers, and that because they fight the Avengers they must be criminals. So it's okay to treat them like criminals. You didn't even give them the benefit of the doubt. I am not even sure any of them want to do anything like that. They mostly just have a problem with being locked up. I think Surge and Velocidad are the only ones that MAY do it.
    Even if they choose not to join the fight, thereīs a huge risk that they will do, so, for their own sake, itīs better to keep them far from the battlefield.

  4. #109
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Because the Runaways arenīt likely to join the X-Men and attack the Avengers, thus 1.-putting their own lives at risk and 2.-putting the world at risk of being destroyed by the Phoenix.



    Even if they choose not to join the fight, thereīs a huge risk that they will do, so, for their own sake, itīs better to keep them far from the battlefield.
    No, there isn't. You just decided that there is a huge risk that they will do it, based on what? They didn't even get involve during the fight in Utopia.
    Even the X-Men didn't want them around, otherwise Magic would have teleported them too.

  5. #110
    Senior Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    No, there isn't. You just decided that there is a huge risk that they will do it, based on what? They didn't even get involve during the fight in Utopia.
    Even the X-Men didn't want them around, otherwise Magic would have teleported them too.
    Those kids are friends of the X-Men, have been mentored by them, have been teached their ideology and many of them want to become X-Men themselves; the Avengers know that very well because they have Wolverine and Beast.

    Also, the X-Men have an record of training kids to fight for them and to become X-Men.

  6. #111
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chaos View Post
    Theres a major difference between the kids in the academy and the ones on Utopia, the academy people respect and follow the Avengers, they're no danger to the effort to stop the phoenix from scorching the earth.

    The kids from utopia follow Cyclops and thus can't be trusted. If they want to fight the Avengers and act like super powered criminals, they're going to be treated like ones.
    Yes, but this goes on the assumption that the Avengers are in the right. What reason do the X-kids have to trust the Avengers or Captain America? The Avengers in the past few years with Dark Avengers haven't been shown to be all that heroic, this may be a different team but how many of the X-kids know that? What they know is that the US government is probably the biggest threat to their freedom and even their survival and the Avengers are acting for the US government.

    Mark_S

  7. #112
    Senior Member Zen-aku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Yes, but this goes on the assumption that the Avengers are in the right. What reason do the X-kids have to trust the Avengers or Captain America? The Avengers in the past few years with Dark Avengers haven't been shown to be all that heroic, this may be a different team but how many of the X-kids know that? What they know is that the US government is probably the biggest threat to their freedom and even their survival and the Avengers are acting for the US government.

    Mark_S
    All of them, considering how many X-men are also avengers, and the X-men [at least the X-men i know] would go out of their way make them know whats what

  8. #113
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Those kids are friends of the X-Men, have been mentored by them, have been teached their ideology and many of them want to become X-Men themselves; the Avengers know that very well because they have Wolverine and Beast.

    Also, the X-Men have an record of training kids to fight for them and to become X-Men.
    They are also people. They have rights. Sure, they have been mentored by the X-Men, that doesn't mean that they will agree with them completely. The Avengers should probably lock up Beast and Wolverine too, because maybe they will change sides. And Ms Marvel, she's been with the X-Men too. And Wanda and Quicksilver for being mutants. And the FF because they have a mutant son. Deadpool has been associated with the XMen, go lock him up too. Basically, go lock up anyone you think may help the xmen.

  9. #114
    Veteran Member gregyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Those kids are friends of the X-Men, have been mentored by them, have been teached their ideology and many of them want to become X-Men themselves; the Avengers know that very well because they have Wolverine and Beast.

    Also, the X-Men have an record of training kids to fight for them and to become X-Men.
    I agree with X-23: "There are many ways to justify something that is wrong. But they do not change the fact that it is wrong.

  10. #115
    Senior Member Zen-aku's Avatar
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    Nice Strawman

    Their is a differences between taking possible combatants off the board then actively accusing teammates who have show far shown where their loyalties lie of possibly being traitors

  11. #116
    Senior Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    They are also people. They have rights. Sure, they have been mentored by the X-Men, that doesn't mean that they will agree with them completely. The Avengers should probably lock up Beast and Wolverine too, because maybe they will change sides. And Ms Marvel, she's been with the X-Men too. And Wanda and Quicksilver for being mutants. And the FF because they have a mutant son. Deadpool has been associated with the XMen, go lock him up too. Basically, go lock up anyone you think may help the xmen.
    O.K.; now youīre mixing race and idology/loyalty, just like Cyclops.
    The fact that a guy or gal is a mutant doesnīt mean he or she will be okay with bringing an Apocalyptic Bird of Doom to Earth, or even that he or she will sympathize with the X-Men; as for Quicksilver, Beast or Wolverine, they would be suspect of mixed loyalties in other circunstances, but they have expressed their desire to stop the Phoenix and their friends in the Avengers have decided to trust them.

    The kids from Utopia, on the other hand, have been teached, tutored, mentored, trained and indoctrinated by the X-Men AND have no link at all with the Avengers and no reason to sympathize with the latter; given the chance, they are likely to take the X-Menīs side.

    If two guys are fighting and their sons arrive, each kid is likely to take his dadīs side, unless he has been mistreated or abused, and the X-Men pupils are likely to take their mentorīs side too.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    I agree with X-23: "There are many ways to justify something that is wrong. But they do not change the fact that it is wrong.
    And what would be the right thing to do? to leave minors run around unsupervised? If their parents want to take them home, fine, they should be taken home, but they canīt be left alone to fend by themselves, mutant or not. If they werenīt mutant they would have been taken to an institution or a fostering home, and if they werenīt minors, they would have been retained to be interrogated by the police or SHIELD or whoever.

    The Avengers Academy was the lesser evil.
    Last edited by Habis; 05-18-2012 at 03:31 PM.

  12. #117
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    Nice Strawman

    Their is a differences between taking possible combatants off the board then actively accusing teammates who have show far shown where their loyalties lie of possibly being traitors
    Fair enough, then forget about the Avenger members (although Protector sort of proves it is possible). That still doesn't make it okay. Just because the Avengers think they are possible combatants, that doesn't make them possible combatants. They already proved that they would say out of the fight by not engaging the Avengers when they attacked Utopia. They didn't leave with the X-Men, even though both Pixie and Magik could have teleported them out. They stayed in their home, and they were forced to leave. They didn't do anything, but they were detained anyway.

  13. #118
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Razor Ramone is the bad guy. <toothpick to the face!>
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  14. #119
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    O.K.; now youīre mixing race and idology/loyalty, just like Cyclops.
    The fact that a guy or gal is a mutant doesnīt mean he or she will be okay with bringing an Apocalyptic Bird of Doom to Earth, or even that he or she will sympathize with the X-Men; as for Quicksilver, Beast or Wolverine, they would be suspect of mixing loyalties in other circunstances, but they have expressed their desire to stop the Phoenix and their friends in the Avengers have decided to trust them.

    The kids from Utopia, on the other hand, have been teached, tutored, mentored, trained and indoctrinated by the X-Men AND have no link at all with the Avengers and no reason to sympathize with the latter; given the chance, they are likely to take the X-Menīs side.

    If two guys are fighting and their sons arrive, each kid is likely to take his dadīs side, unless he has been mistreated or abused, and the X-Men pupils are likely to take their mentorīs side too.
    No sorry, that wasn't my point about being mutants. It's that one could argue that is a link to the X-Men too, so it's a reason to lock them up. In the FF case, that their son could be thought of dangerous too, so maybe that makes them sympathize with the X-Men.

    Anyway, yes, the kids have no reason to sympathize with the Avengers, but that doesn't mean they will enter the fight. They didn't do it during the Utopia fight, and they didn't folow the Xmen when they left (Pixie could have teleported them). They could have escaped at anypoint then. (the only one that could have stopped them was Dr. Strange, and he was still recovering) They didn't. So why is it that even though they haven't done anything, even with the chance to do so, they are still treated as criminals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    And what would be the right thing to do? I leave minors run around unsupervised? If their parents want to take them home, fine, they should be taken home, but they canīt be left alone to fend by themselves, mutant or not. If they werenīt mutant they would have been taken to an institution or a fostering home, and if they werenīt minors, they would have been retained to be interrogated by the police or SHIELD or whoever.

    The Avengers Academy was the lesser evil.
    They could have just left them at their home (they were there), with the Adults that were still there (the X-Club minus Jeffries).
    Last edited by Viteh; 05-18-2012 at 03:24 PM.

  15. #120
    Senior Member Zen-aku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    That still doesn't make it okay. Just because the Avengers think they are possible combatants, that doesn't make them possible combatants.
    Except Scott has a long horrible history of putting them in the line of fire.


    They already proved that they would say out of the fight by not engaging the Avengers when they attacked Utopia. They didn't leave with the X-Men, even though both Pixie and Magik could have teleported them out. They stayed in their home, and they were forced to leave. They didn't do anything, but they were detained anyway.
    They were ordered to guard hope, additionally they also have history of running of half clocked and causing bad situations to get worse (messiah complex) also they are minors, as Habis said if they weren't mutants they would go to a foster home.

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